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Old 08-01-2012, 06:08 PM
 
22,691 posts, read 10,377,408 times
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Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
How? By personally programming your genetic code?
By creating the genetic code that contains you as one of its manifestations.
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Old 08-01-2012, 07:39 PM
 
28 posts, read 10,279 times
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Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
Redrum22 said: "The universe is extremely inhospitable to life beyond earth, so far as we know. While that knowledge could change one day, until it does I'd say the odds are pretty good we are here more than just because of pure damn good luck." My point was that our knowledge changes constantly and that nobody knew that arsenic based life forms existed or even could exist until a few years ago. We don't know what kinds of life the different conditions in the universe are hospitable to.
I understood your point. We will never know everything about the universe. Therefore even if life beyond our planet is never discovered, one could still presume that it must be out there, somewhere. Thus, the possibility can never be utterly denied. So I think its better to wait until there is actually proof, because otherwise mankind could always be considered a possible inferior species to whatever ones imagination can conjur up.

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Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
Did you read the links?
no, sorry, can't do it all.

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Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
It is wonderful because it "is unlike anything currently living in planet Earth.
I don't see it as wonderful. That seems an odd word choice at least. Maybe, stunningly unusual or something such

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Originally Posted by ArtieE View Post
What a perfect description of religion and the Bible. Because we haven't actually discovered intelligent, self conscious life elsewhere in the universe so therefore the Bible must be sci-fi. Right?
I'm not a big bible defender, but the bible does not hold itself out as sci anything, does it?

Regardless, the creator has obviously chosen not to make himself visible or obvious to us in this life/dimension. If he did, can you imagine the result? Great Scott, pandemonium would be off the charts. No doubt he realizes this. If his existence was clearly known and provable, and worshipping him meant eternal life, how many non worshippers would there be? Not many smart ones, I'd venture. At the first sign of trouble in this life people might think it an easy decision to check out for the next. This life would become totally meaningless, in that everyone would only be prepping for the next much longer existence.

Clearly, god has determined it is better he make us work and strive to appreciate his existence, rather than giving us that certain knowledge. This life has meaning because we can't prove or know there is a creator, thus we are challenged to discover him on our own.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 6,539,064 times
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Originally Posted by Redrum22 View Post
Is this microorganism wonderful for any particular reason? Is it sentient? Does it have a conscious? Does it make art? Is it INTELLIGENT?

I don't think unusual microorganisms are proof of anything other than life at the cellular level is diverse. Nevertheless, going from there to the equivalent of a human being isn't common or likely.

When truly intelligent, self conscious life is discovered elsewhere in the universe, then we can have a deeper discussion. Until then, "imagining" what might be out there is sci fie, not sci fact.
One) There's that oft-repeated assumption that in order to be "of significance", some newly discovered organism or families of those, or even something perhaps less than an assembled multi-celled organism, MUST therefore be Designed. It's what God intended, right? Only the "greaters" need be considered here, never the "lessers"? What if (I mean... hypothetically, WHAT IF...) those "lessers" evolved into some "greaters", or at the least into something "more" than what they were before? For this we only have to look briefly at most any DNA trackable species on this planet, to see that they ALL were phenotypically (developmentally, visibly, functionally, physically...) "lessers" or less capable or less intricate than they are now.

As in: Time and Evolution do not generally go backwards...., with an organism's DNA bio-logically "selecting" for a lesser capability.

So they are advancing, but not us? We're just as God made Adam and Eve?

(btw, how does this, in the total absence of any DNA mutation or long-time changes [quietly known amongst us scientists as EVOLUTION!! TA-DAH!"}, allow for, let's say, sickle-cell anemia, or Down's Syndrome, or Teret's, or a host of other inherited disabilities? Did Adam and/or Eve have those disfunctions as well. Because if they did not, how........ on......... earth ("Duhhh!!!"") did those little problems "come along"? I mean, if NOT for retained mutation? Which is the sole basis for Evolution.)

Wow! How selective an interpretation you conveniently provide us . And so, OK.... let's go with this very limited line of reasoning shall we? The Cro-Magnons were (i) unrelated to us at all, or with an even more ostrich-like evaluation of it all, (ii) they never really existed, nor did the Neanderthals' or finally, that (iii) they were just as intellectually capable and developed as we current hominids are? We're all just the same?

The utter arrogance of the religious human animal (yes, that would be "animal" that I wrote, not anything greater, nor lesser. Plant or animal. Those are our only two options.).

The significance of all those cosmological constants is obvious: that if we didn't "jive" and co-exist with them, why... we'd not be here! (Can I add "Duhh!" here? Is this too complex a concept for the usual denialist mentality?)

Either nothing would be here if those constraints were that limiting, or we'd all be significantly different species, having been actively selected for our abilities to handle greater or lesser gravity, oxygen, humidity, plant life food options, suitable escape and protective habitat, predator types and so on. After al, the penguins & polar bear,s not to mention an Amazonian croc or boa, have obviously all adapted to a their unique and very rigorous environments, with all the requisite physical adaptions to allow them to survive. One could not survive in the others' place of habitation, right? Why: Because they don't have the right stuff! Nor would we if we had evolved on Jupiter, and then were flown here and dropped of, Noah's Ark style.

"Have a nice day! Oh.... Ooops!!! Sorry you can't breath this atmosphere. Well, uhmmm... ask God for help!"

The proof of the later adaptabilities are that there certainly were dinosaurs, as there were fish with different gill structures, limbs and all the other adaptations, for a greater or lesser oxygen content, life in tide pools (where we reliably find their fossil remains, nests and eggs...), and tree-dwelling mammalian precursors.

We now know, from glacial and Antarctic ice core drillings (that we can absolutely date down to a 100 - 200 year resolution out of literally millions of years, of spore, pollen and animal/plant detritus deposition(note: by simple "varve" counts,) significantly different oxygen and CO2 levels on earth during the reign of the dinosaurs.

They were very differently adapted for those existing conditions and the resulting plant life bloom, but an earth-rending meteor impact (Chicxulub. Look it up and check out why and how we KNOW it happened! Undeniable, btw, since we have the crater as evidence for heaven's sake! {unless... God put it there... just to fool us...}) and that event significantly altered all of the terran ecosystem for good, and so most of the larger and less mobile dinos went mostly extinct, except those who could and did fly and escape some of the gross-level impacts.

If the exact same atmospheric conditions that existed on our early earth did existed elsewhere, but on a planet with, say, twice the gravity, then we'd have evolved differently. Or, if it had one-half that gravity, why then we'd also be different. By the "design" process of DNA bio-logic.

Which in a nutshell, an undeniable nutshell at that, is this:

1) it mutates allowing for different versions of itself. We know and can easily demonstrate this, so no denying it here please. Most (99.999999%) will be errant, statistically and logically, and will thus fail. But then... (*cue the symphonic flourishment music)...

2) that mere, tiny remnant 0.0000001% {which is still hugely significant when you realize we're talking uncountable quintrillions of individual cells or pre-cellular molecular experimental lash-ups...} do in fact produce some minor (or even major!)advantage(s) for the conditions extant at that time and place. These then go on, through those subsequent rapid and huge reproductive replacements, rapidly (exponential growth and all...) to produce an entire new generation that adds reliably to that new genome, leaving the "old one" to continue along in it's previous niche, or perhaps replacing it.

3) this process, maintained over literally multi-billions of years, and by again uncountable quintrillions and bahzillions of organisms per day no less, do, yup: produce measurable functional advancements that live within those supposed Design Constants you claim require a designer. He's not necessary! In fact: He's Unnecessary. More of an advancement hindrance if we have to wait for His little "serial" adaptations. One at a time. Yawn.

4) Finally, He obviously produced so many dismal failures (including, in some critical physiological areas, us!) that have gone quite extinct (we find all their remains in the fossilized and non-fossilized detritus and sediments of time) that He's demonstrably not very good at it, obviously.

5) The constant assumption that we're here and that's it, is totally untenable. and illogical. and so easy debunked! All of those! Look at what we've learned and advanced in the last mere, say, 25 or 50 years! To limit us and say "But so far we haven't found such and such, or some other inhabited planet, and so we NEVER will!" is pure unmitigated selective faith-based illiteracy.

6) We have barely scratched the diamond-hard surface of outer space's secrets, and yet Christians have already closed the intellectual door on possible future findings. "We haven't found anything better than us yet!" they desperately mutter, glancing up in a truly frightened outlook, knowing that is just plain silliness.

But trust me, we'll be finding all sorts of new and interesting things, which will confound "The Mandatory Hand of God, my son!" requirement. The outer inhabitants we may well encounter, if they are truly advanced beyond our simpleton ideas and technologies, will all laugh at the idea of some hyper-advanced but distinctly homind entity that made us in It's Arrogant Image.

"Why did He make us look like you then ?" asks the 12 armed, 47.6 eyed creature that bathes itself in it's own lithium-based fog, and gathers energy by (oh-ohhh) eating softly sludgy & arrogant carbon-based life forms.

"Run!! Be VERY MUCH AFRAID!"

Last edited by rifleman; 08-01-2012 at 09:16 PM..
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
4,599 posts, read 3,022,914 times
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Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
entity that made us in It's Arrogant Image.
It's is a contraction. As in: It is becomes It's.
The word you should have used is Its. If one is going to pontificate and belittle those with whom you disagree, please have all of your grammatical (and spelling) ducks in a row. Helps one's credibility.

Last edited by Mr5150; 08-01-2012 at 08:37 PM..
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:38 PM
 
28 posts, read 10,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
We now know, from glacial and Antarctic ice core drillings (that we can absolutely date down to a 10 - 15 year resolution in literally millions of years of spore, pollen and animal/plant detritus depositionby simple "varve" counts) significantly different oxygen and CO2 levels on earth during the reign of the dinosaurs. They were very differently adapted for those conditions and the resulting plant life bloom, but an earth-rending meteor impact (Chicxulub. Look it up and check out why and how we KNOW it happened! Undeniable, btw, we have the crater as evidence for heaven's sake! {unlesssd... God put it there... just to fool us...}) altered it all for good, and the dinos went mostly extinct except those who could fly and escape some of the gross-level impacts.

If the exact same atmospheric conditions that existed on some early earth did exist but on a planet with twice the gravity, then we'd have evolved differently. If it had one-half that gravity, why then we'd also be different. By the "design" process of DNA bio-logic..
More good fortune for mankind! An asteroid came along and wiped out all the dinosaurs and redid the atmosphere just right so we could take over. As Dana Carvey might say, how connnvennniiiient! And no, I'm not denying the asteroid, just that it's all just magic good luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
1) it mutates allowing for different versions of itself. Most (99.999999%) will be errant, statistically and logically, and will thus fail. But then... *cue the symphonic flourishment music)...

2) that mere, tiny remnant 0.0000001% {which is significant when you realize we're talking uncountable quintrillions of individual cells or pre-cellular molecular experimental lash-ups...} do in fact produce some minor advantage for the conditions extant at that time and place. These then go on, rapidly (exponential growth and all...) to produce an entire new generation that adds reliably to that new genome, leaving the "old one" to continue along in it's previous niche, or perhaps replacing it.

3) this process, maintained over literally multi-billions of years, and by again uncountable quintrillions and bahzillions of organisms per day no less, do, yup: produce measurable functional advancements that live within those supposed Design Constants you claim require a designer. He's not necessary! In fact: He's Unnecessary. More of an advancement hindrance if we have to wait for His little adaptations.
.
See, there is where you get screwed up. Your calendar math doesn't work. There just ain't enough time for it all to happen the way you say. The earth is only 13.7 billion years old. That's not enough time for life to blossom forth from nothingness into us. Think about this. Say there are 1000000 critters. One critter experiences an advantageous mutation. How many years does it take before the many descendants of all those critters all incorporate that mutation? Quite a few, to say the least. And that's just one tiny mutation. There must have been millions of them to get to us. The math doesn't work, hoss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
5) The constant assumption that weer're here and thta's it, is totally untenable. Look at what we've learned and advanced in the last mere, say, 25 or 50 years! To limit us and say "But so far we haven't found such and such, or some other habited planet, ans so we NEVER will!" is pure unmitigated selective faith-based illiteracy.

6) We have barely scratched the diamond-hard surface of outer space's secrets, and yet Christians have already closed the intellectual door on possible future findings. "We haven't found anything better than us yet!" they desperately mutter, glancing up in a truly frightened outlook, knowing that is just plain silliness.

But trust me, we'll be finding all sorts of new and interesting things, which will confound "The Mandatory Hand of God, my son!" requirement. The outer inhabitants we may well encounter, if they are truly advanced beyond our simpleton ideas and technologies, will all laugh at the idea of some hyper-advanced but distinctly homind entity that made us in It's Arrogant Image.
Oh, the irony. You denigrate theists for believing what they cannot see, while you worship the holy grail of statistical probabilities. I dont believe in UFOs, do you? Liberals love to imagine there is a platonic ideal of a species out there, that has everything figured out, and does it all right while we are cro mag on like. Eating meat, how savage! Contact sports, the horror! Please. Your fervent imagination about these eventual visitors who will set us straight is pure sci fie. The only thing I do know if aliens do land one day: very bad for technology stocks. Lol

It may be untenable to you, statistically or philosophically, but until there's proof its just your vivid imagination. And personally, sensing the presence of algae on some watery cess pool 350 billion light years away doesn't change a thing regarding humanity's place in the world.

What should terrify you is if we humans are the best it gets, and if there is a god, he no likeee what you do here, senior....heehee
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
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If you and I with this bit of grey jello in our sculls - sitting on this speck of dust in the universe...are aware....Then most certainly the universe must also be aware- it must have an intelligence. The fact that the universe does not suddenly expand into chaos or contract into a shrunken mess...shows that it is perfectly designed. The most simplistic way to understand if the universe - is through the big bang theory.....When the universe was contracted to the point of being the big nothing...it could have stayed the big nothing- but a decision was made....a thought- and that thought was to decide to go from a big nothing to a big something....If there was no thought or decision by the great designer we and the universe would simply not exist...the fact that the universe exists is proof of design.


Everything that exists has a design- everything that has no existence- has no design,,,,it;s simple
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Old 08-01-2012, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
The argument seems to be that the universe is too complex to be anything other than a act of creation, a designed plan, that random chance could not have played any part in what is. And even more interesting is that the solar system was designed to support intelligent life. So what demonstrates design in, let's say, our solar system. Is it the unequal distance, and size of the planets? The seemingly random number of moons that the planets possess? What would indicate elements of design?
If I were on "team creationist" I would probably tell you that you could start with the fact that the gravitational pull of Jupiter shields Earth from much of the dangerous debris that enters our solar system, allowing life to prosper uninhibited...... But I'm not, so I won't.
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Old 08-01-2012, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
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Take the earth and move it out from the sun by a bit- we freeze...move it closer by a bit we burn..That fine line that allows life is thinner than a hair in comparison to the great endless expanse. It's not that the solar system is so remarkable- like a big clock. What is remarkable is that sun flower seed I planted in the spring...In that one seed is the program for the perfect pre-planned placement of a million hairs on the stem and leaves- a million little veins to carry water to all parts of the plant--the flower with a billion bits of pollen..then the 5oo or so new seeds containing programs for 500 more pants.... that oil can be extracted from to deep fry my chicken...




Natural design takes place and then human design kicks in- it is we who generated the design of extraction of oil- to light a fire to heat the oil to cook the chicken...it was a prior designer that came up with the sun flower and the chicken...


If humans are designers and the sun flower is also a designer...then self design must take place- some call it adaptation and some call it creation...If we are self created then we must have a father creator who created us the self generators.



If we can design- the universe that goes on for an eternity--must surely stumble upon it self and eventually fall upon design- even if it is a thing we call accident or random...or chance because with in an eternity there is enough time for everything to happen. That would also be design. If you you traveled for a million trillion years you would surely stumble upon God and maybe not....all is possible because the possibility is ENDLESS.....with an endless universe all is probable.........I guess that is the answer.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:42 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Nothing designed is more complex than it's designer. If a thing's complexity is a requirement for a designer, than a designer must have themselves been designed by an even more complex designer, ad infinitum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum22
No one claims G-d said this planet goes here, that one there, like an interior designer placing lamps and rugs.
Is that hyperbole? I've known of many who claim just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum22
but the bible does not hold itself out as sci anything, does it?
The bible is an inanimate object, so of course it doesn't hold itself out as anything. Though it's authors surely intended it to explain the world around them from their limited perspective. As wrong as all that turned out to be.

Quote:
If he did, can you imagine the result? Great Scott, pandemonium would be off the charts.
I would imagine the exact opposite. No one would have room for argument. There would be no fighting over who was right and who wrong when neither had a case that could be settled, because the evidence would be staring them in the face.

Quote:
This life would become totally meaningless, in that everyone would only be prepping for the next much longer existence.
From all signs of ancient burial rites humans, particularly pagan in belief, have been doing exactly that for millennia. It is only recently(The last few thousand years) through philosophy and scientific discovery that all this "next life" stuff has come under question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum22
More good fortune for mankind! An asteroid came along and wiped out all the dinosaurs and redid the atmosphere just right so we could take over. As Dana Carvey might say, how connnvennniiiient! And no, I'm not denying the asteroid, just that it's all just magic good luck.
And where in the scale of importance will humanity be when the next asteroid hits? To think that we are special in the great scale of things that have been and will come is pure arrogance. It's all actions and reactions, no magic good luck involved.

Quote:
but until there's proof its just your vivid imagination.
Good, good. Now apply that to yourself and we'll all be settled.
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Old 08-02-2012, 01:36 AM
 
4,921 posts, read 1,719,073 times
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Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
Another question to ask is, "Why does anything exist"
Thats just a plagarism of the "Why is there something rather than nothing" question really. It is an open question and one we are working on at this time as a species. Alas, of course, theists will gravitate towards open questions of this sort and act like "Because you have no answer... therefore god".

I have always felt uncomfortable at the question "Why is there something rather than nothing" as built into it is the assumption that "nothing" is the default and hence the "something" is what requires the explanation. I have never heard that assumption defended. Why can "something" not be the default and hence it is up to them to explain to us why they would expect "nothing". Just as valid therefore is the question "Why SHOULD there be nothing rather than something?".
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