Cut Loose After Creation...abandoned perhaps? (genesis, America, myths, prophets)

[Oleg Bach]

It gave me something to think about when a poster mentioned that the founding fathers of AMERICA believed that God right after creation set the world free to fend for itself. If this is true then those that are always asking, why do bad things happen to good people? Or, how does God allow horrific things to happen on earth if he is supposed to be watching out and over us?

This makes a lot of sense and even atheists could possibly embrace this idea. Of course every once in a while a suggestion or message is sent to mankind through an angel or prophet...so as to help things along when we get totally lost..Jesus had some great ideas on how to make human existence as pleasant as possible..and our systems as functional as possible.

Of course being a Christian I can't fully deny the use of real and good messages sent through the prophets of other religions..because sometime even a prophet is tempted to be governed by human imagination and ambition..which lead to incorrect information that might have been transmitted from God too us...so Logic comes into play in order to discern what is real and of good use and what is - misinformation or even a common but grand lie.


As I sat this morning I thought of how my roof top garden struggles...and how in a sense I have become a slave to it...a servant...If I don't keep a diligent eye on it- It will die quickly because of the roof top heat and lack of real and deep soil...So I have to take care of it...which made me think- Do some of us have the job of taking care of our fellow man...because God's plan included that we be created and then fend for our selves..to either thrive or perish...and are some of us like gardeners who are their to water our fellow human beings to minister (serve) them?


If God through his plan granted us free will - It would make sense that we have wills of our own- seeing God's will is dormant in regards to our existence- Instead of GOD bless America - should AMERICANS bless each other? Some might think that the idea of an all abandoning God is horrible and frightening- But if it is the case- then the non-application of God's will is the application of God's will.

This idea does not remove the possibility of divine intervention...that emerges in emergency situations...But for the most part...I would suggest....to believers and atheists...God may have cut us loose to fend for ourselves and we had better grow up and deal with it...Instead of being like children crying at the door step of our father- begging to let us back in because we do not want to deal with the cold cruel world?

[GCSTroop]

You can try to reason your way to some sort of comfort level with the maniacal terror you call God but please don't make the assumption that atheists would ever find it reasonable. At least, this atheist certainly doesn't.

I rescue dogs. Many times when I find them they're simply thrown away and abandoned. They're brought into this world for the narcissistic purposes of some frivolous human and then, after their tired of, their "God" simply opens the car door and leaves them out to die. You can usually find them dehydrated, starving, loaded with ticks and fleas, and usually with a disease or two. The sad thing is that the dog's nature is so adoring that if the old owner happened to walk by, the dog would probably be thrilled to see him or her. They're simply ignorant or blind to the fact that they almost died because of the irresponsible nature of this person they're now jumping all over. It can't process the fact that they were left helpless in a brutal world, left to die all on its own, and all at the behest of some sick, sadistic, and narcissistic parasite of a human being. Yet, when rescued, there seems to be an innate sense of gratitude and loyalty that acknowledges how close it came to dying.

The analogy is the same. I don't believe in a god. However, if there was a deity who simply brought us into this world only to then "open the car door" and let us helplessly fend for ourselves for his own narcissistic purposes then he certainly isn't worth worshipping. In fact, the entire concept should be abhorrent to us and we should all gasp in terror at the concept that there are people willing to accept this as a deity worthy of worship.

And yet, you propose that he just sends a miracle or two down from the heavens to let us know he's there out of - what? Some sort of cosmic guilt level? That's kind of like dumping a dog off and then calling someone after its spent a week alone terrified and near death to let them know there's a dog running free and needs to be rescued. That's not worthy of worship. That's nothing but pure evil and only the most ignorant and stupid of people would ever find themselves groveling at the foot of such raw, narcissistic, and shallow actions.

Don't ever assume that I or any other atheist would find that rational or delightful. It's sick, demoralizing and twisted to even put me on a playing field which assumes that such awfulness would be acceptable in my eyes.

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach

It gave me something to think about when a poster mentioned that the founding fathers of AMERICA believed that God right after creation set the world free to fend for itself. If this is true then those that are always asking, why do bad things happen to good people? Or, how does God allow horrific things to happen on earth if he is supposed to be watching out and over us?

This makes a lot of sense and even atheists could possibly embrace this idea. Of course every once in a while a suggestion or message is sent to mankind through an angel or prophet...so as to help things along when we get totally lost..Jesus had some great ideas on how to make human existence as pleasant as possible..and our systems as functional as possible.

Of course being a Christian I can't fully deny the use of real and good messages sent through the prophets of other religions..because sometime even a prophet is tempted to be governed by human imagination and ambition..which lead to incorrect information that might have been transmitted from God too us...so Logic comes into play in order to discern what is real and of good use and what is - misinformation or even a common but grand lie.


As I sat this morning I thought of how my roof top garden struggles...and how in a sense I have become a slave to it...a servant...If I don't keep a diligent eye on it- It will die quickly because of the roof top heat and lack of real and deep soil...So I have to take care of it...which made me think- Do some of us have the job of taking care of our fellow man...because God's plan included that we be created and then fend for our selves..to either thrive or perish...and are some of us like gardeners who are their to water our fellow human beings to minister (serve) them?


If God through his plan granted us free will - It would make sense that we have wills of our own- seeing God's will is dormant in regards to our existence- Instead of GOD bless America - should AMERICANS bless each other? Some might think that the idea of an all abandoning God is horrible and frightening- But if it is the case- then the non-application of God's will is the application of God's will.

This idea does not remove the possibility of divine intervention...that emerges in emergency situations...But for the most part...I would suggest....to believers and atheists...God may have cut us loose to fend for ourselves and we had better grow up and deal with it...Instead of being like children crying at the door step of our father- begging to let us back in because we do not want to deal with the cold cruel world?

I'm very encouraged that the thinking that went into that post.

The problem of evil is one that reportedly is one of the most bothersome for the theist since the supposed signs of a hands -on god don't really appear to be there - at least to someone prepared to consider the matter objectively.

Thus Deism - the idea that a god made everything and then left us to our own devices - gets over that particular problem. And Deists (as many of the founding fathers were) do thus regard all supposed interventions of gods as claimed by the religious as myths. Jefferson, notably, rejected all divine manifestations in the Bible as mythical and just regarded Jesus as a supreme giver of moral law.

Thus a deist will tend to be an irreligious theist - believing in a god that made everything but not having any time for organized religion or its claims. While I would argue that the theory of evolution and the greater understanding of cosmic origins does remove much of the Deist argument that goddunnit, that becomes an academic argument since a deist is very unlikely to be interested in pushing religious interests and observances on everyone.

Succinctly, my axiom is that a deist is someone I could share a flat with.

I note that, while you suppose that a god would occasionally send a divinely inspired message along for guidance, you are aware that other religions make the same sort of claims, so you are tending towards pantheism (in the sense of everybody-god rather than god as nature) alongside deism, and that is moving you well along to ideas which indeed, as you say, an atheist such as myself could happily tolerate, if not actually accept.

Let's keep talking.

[Sir Les]

I don't know...after reading GCSTROOP's post...I find it hard to believe some peoples take on God...Now when a child is born...and starts to crawl around...yes the parent watches and allows the child to crawl into and out of situations...and when it gets too dangerious, they step in to stop the progression into that danger...But the parent allowed the child to crawl....eventually if progressions work out...eventually the child walks...and the same process begins again...watching the child...to make sure no accedents occur...and then...they grow even more..and get into even more dangerious situations...and learning while they grow and progress to the next level of Growth...in mind, body, spirit, and intelligence...in normal situations and all being normal...that child becomes a man or a woman or in some cases other...working to be Humankind...or ..humanunkind...depending on which side of the coin your brainwashed by...it seems....

Now if we take God...as the Father/creator...who has sent word, sent prophets, sent his only son...and others...to help correct or lead us away from those dangers and the destruction of that creation which supports many different livng things........and those words, instructions, and people are denied, or silenced or put behind bars, and slaughtered in oh so many ways....Well...you cannot say God is at fault...for one can only do so much to stop a stuborn, destructive, and foolish spoilt children from harming themselves or others or All...for if they want to harm themselves by testing the waters of stupidity...best to let em taste that water of btterness..if they do not listen to wortd, reason, punishment, (parent or God)...and the resulting factors prove...why what was said,was said for reason!...and others learn from their mistakes...SO to see what happens to others consistantly for doing the same things..results in same problems or punishments (rewards)...then some will learn by that method....without doing what causes those Rewards!

God has the power over life and death...as Jesus poves...SO...if you live a good life..and do no sins...you cannot die..even if they kill you...and once you fulfill what God asks of us all to do...which is good..and righteous, and sound...and benefits the whole...not just the self......well you are on your way to becoming a helper of God and all Living things God made Good.

If God keeps putting his foot into things to stop your destany..or lead your progression by force...would it be a selfless inherant traight you arrive at?..or would you be molded by his will not yours?....as I believe God wants people who think and do Good out of their own heart....without being told, or taught, or forced...it is naturally occuring...although some Guidance is in place to that understanding of God, and what he wants...how he gets it..and when....well that is up to those who not only sin and show the fruits of that..but evil and those rewards shown for that...once we see with open eyes the world according to Garp...well he become God like...and seeing the errors of their ways with our own eyes...can help lead us to a path that is sound and stands out as not taken by those being punished for their actions or denials......
being a Good God, he cannot die/ has no sin?..Jesus proves?.....why would he come into death to teach? perhaps to make us become something more in a evolutionary step we do not know about...or cannot see clearly towards..that lies beyond this Earth....and as he has sent his son...and they slaughtered him, and God raised him back to life and into Light spirit and took him up, with one other......what do you think they would do to God if he came down here to correct us again?....Surely they would plot to have him killed in some bent war?..or by some bent sacrifice..or assasinations.....

So..as I believe...we are left alone, only because we do not listen nor do we do what we should be doing...and in that we disobey God....and that is something we do intentionally once we Grow up to a point of understanding what we see , hear, and understand....but still cling to our disobedance....stuborn...selfish....unintelligent. ..foolish...to proud to bend a knee, or say thanks to that God of creation, who is only trying to make us rise up to the next level of existance...LIGHT SPIRIT....and SO Jesus must return, for those who do comply to that God and his word, and need to be brought out of the destructive stupidity of Humanunkind (now ready to blow up the planet and everything on it)......but he will only return when the time is right...and as I see it, We ain't ready for that yet....but we are getting closer to dooms day every day...and someone is sitting ready to push the button!

And when he comes this time...I't ain't gonna be sweet and pleasant visitations...as we know the same mindsets and spirits are amongst us that slaughter innocent people because they are a threat to the national security of their wealth and enslaved blind supporters....Sins and Evils everywhere...and the rewards for them upon the Earth showing signs!= more death!!...for good reasoning....

SO has God abandoned Us?....by no means....Has Jesus abandoned us?...Nope.....but we abandon them by not doing what was said to do for them to come, and us to Go....and so they do not come, and we do not Go...until it is all fulfilled...by one, or by many....that is up to us to figure out and do...if we do..we Go..if we do not do..we do not go........cause we have the words, we know his will...and we see the rewards for sin and evil..holy and righteousness..so we can make better choices today!!...thanks be to God!!!

[Heathen Hammer]

It is possible the dog would blame itself, as well.

[Sir Les]

The reason for a cold cruel world is stated in Genesis...God says: "It is because of you it is like this"....SO what God is saying is fix the error you created...and drove them out of EDEN...into the reality they made by their disobediance!...with word to tame it, and have dominion over it, and make it like Eden and then Multiply it out...and this can be done...if done right...and it can seed new worlds if we comply...but one has to right the errors of our ways before hand, other wise it does not work....see it like a formula or equation....if one removes one thing out of its placement, then the whole chain or equation becomes wrong or gives error/mutates/ or forms irrational results....hence the cold cruel world is our fault...why should God fix our mistakes?...and how do we learn, if we are always corrected?...and without punishment...learning Good from bad becomes obscured with hints of gray matter..and dark matter...which really should not be...but are....only because we do not listen, we do not do, we do not restore or make in likeness (Acts 3:21)=(rev 17:17)= (first will be last)= (Genesis 2:15)= the restoration of something taken without permission..sinlessly undoes something gained by that disobediance, ....and another Eden is born under God....by following that simple formula.

"Give onto God what belongs to God" = something not given, but was taken way back in the beginning (Eve ate with Adam)....and Justice is served when restored onto God sinlessly...Things go back to the way they were suppose to be....Tame...order...and in good sound and eco friendly Unions, as they should see us as helpers of the whole, when we do what God asks of us to do for the whole..and ourselves..and eachother,....not Just the self. ..and not for foolish gains or wealth...but for prosparity and healthy estates to arise in....Now that is what Wedlocked pairing should be doing first ....But they are not!...infact they are polluting that estate they need to make clean and prestine for their children to be born into...harming countless other living things aswell...that are all part of a chain of unions....go too far with that stupidity...and the world goes into chaos!= fails or dies or becomes harsh towards us......SO who is at fault?....God already said " I wish I never made Humans"....I can see why he said that Now more so then when I first read it....But polluted, destroyed, and biohazardious estates made for profits and gains in more dead things, is exactly the opposite of tend and keep...wonder why?...Yah it has already been writen way back then...and still they do not do with all this slapping us in the face.....surely round and round in circles, doing the same old things...and not good things to boot....for the same old results to festor like a sore unhealed wound...why?...cause Humans do not believe and do what should be done by now.....it is plainly outragious stupidity!...but that is humanunkind....what God wants is the Humankind aspect of the ratio...born out of the opposites, that make their way to a path of thinking and doing that is along the lines of righteousness, and sinlessness...for God does not send commandments down for us to follow..only to be taken as suggestions....I say...they are to form a state of being...so another state can be resolved....yes?...restoration of EDEN and then its multiples can be sown into the universe....only Good is wanted....as we can see what Bad brings!....and Jesus is in part responsible..."Let em be"...SO we can see the results...and make better progressions, or those results prove or uncover the hiden Path they do not want you to take...as it resolves their bent Game of death for dollars, and polluting the estate/creation for mutation and bent sciences and big Pharmacuticals to prosper off of that stupidity!!

But saying the world is cruel and cold...surely a testement to something ringing a bell, to spurr us into action, because it is the right thing to do?

[hljc]

Gods honor was overruled by Adam and Eve who ignored His Words , which gave God no authority in the earth ...... See if Adam and Eve would have obeyed God then the World would have been and completely different place , were sin would be absent , and the devil who manipulates sin would have being removed by the authority God gave Adam and Eve, .... So God took Adam and Eve and blessed one of the descendent's of each family that came after as a act of faith for a point of contact for Jesus to come and take back what was lost...... Which Jesus did ... So now God created Christians family as children of God and they wait until Jesus will come and remove the devil who manipulates sin in the world and claim His inheritances of a sin free world as Adam and Eve were called to have....

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

Succinctly, my axiom is that a deist is someone I could share a flat with.

Well.... OK then, but if I promise to make le Gran Marniér or cheese-truffle soufflés, you have to promise that you won't have us bowing our heads each morning to verbally thank some deistic entity for the true scientifically supported "miracle" that is a risen soufflé!

(Btw: soufflés really are one of my specialities, along with my continuing production of Darwinian French Bread: I keep tinkering with it's ingredients and s l o w l y .... it's evolving into something even better!)

[AREQUIPA]

Originally Posted by rifleman

Well.... OK then, but if I promise to make le Gran Marniér or cheese-truffle soufflés, you have to promise that you won't have us bowing our heads each morning to verbally thank some deistic entity for the true scientifically supported "miracle" that is a risen soufflé!

(Btw: soufflés really are one of my specialities, along with my continuing production of Darwinian French Bread: I keep tinkering with it's ingredients and s l o w l y .... it's evolving into something even better!)

I have never actually shared a flat with a deist, but I doubt that there would be a problem with muttered 'We thank thee, invisible maker of the cosmos, for thy decreeing of physical properties of chablis which doth deglaze the juices of the beef from the base of this, thy pan...' but I could probably live even with that.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

You can try to reason your way to some sort of comfort level with the maniacal terror you call God but please don't make the assumption that atheists would ever find it reasonable. At least, this atheist certainly doesn't.

I rescue dogs. Many times when I find them they're simply thrown away and abandoned. They're brought into this world for the narcissistic purposes of some frivolous human and then, after their tired of, their "God" simply opens the car door and leaves them out to die. You can usually find them dehydrated, starving, loaded with ticks and fleas, and usually with a disease or two. The sad thing is that the dog's nature is so adoring that if the old owner happened to walk by, the dog would probably be thrilled to see him or her. They're simply ignorant or blind to the fact that they almost died because of the irresponsible nature of this person they're now jumping all over. It can't process the fact that they were left helpless in a brutal world, left to die all on its own, and all at the behest of some sick, sadistic, and narcissistic parasite of a human being. Yet, when rescued, there seems to be an innate sense of gratitude and loyalty that acknowledges how close it came to dying.

The analogy is the same. I don't believe in a god. However, if there was a deity who simply brought us into this world only to then "open the car door" and let us helplessly fend for ourselves for his own narcissistic purposes then he certainly isn't worth worshipping. In fact, the entire concept should be abhorrent to us and we should all gasp in terror at the concept that there are people willing to accept this as a deity worthy of worship.

And yet, you propose that he just sends a miracle or two down from the heavens to let us know he's there out of - what? Some sort of cosmic guilt level? That's kind of like dumping a dog off and then calling someone after its spent a week alone terrified and near death to let them know there's a dog running free and needs to be rescued. That's not worthy of worship. That's nothing but pure evil and only the most ignorant and stupid of people would ever find themselves groveling at the foot of such raw, narcissistic, and shallow actions.

Don't ever assume that I or any other atheist would find that rational or delightful. It's sick, demoralizing and twisted to even put me on a playing field which assumes that such awfulness would be acceptable in my eyes.

Very good analogy and post. It's just more tired attempts at rationalization of something that is not and cannot be rationalized.