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Other people out there have done a good job - read their books. I could spend time myself but what's the point? To not do as good a job in attempting to prove to one anonymous person on the Internet something that he will never accept anyway? Why don't you just enumerate your contradictions instead of trying to be cute?
Here's a brief summary of events in case you forgot - hopefully this sounds familiar:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
I could provide a multitude of links to websites, documents, and video debates that contradict each point you've made, but that would be a cop out. If I can't formulate my own conclusions from the original sources, I would fail in convincing myself of these conclusions. You have no proof of any of these statements you've made, other than the possibility of demonstrating the inerrancy of this diverse collection of books written by men. This is one opportunity to do so; but its ok to avoid it.
Edit: One other point, since Judas was supposedly dead, its unlikely that Jesus could appear to the twelve.
Indeed. And that is just one of a myriad such problems throughout. Now, I have heard arguments that 'the twelve' was a generic term applied to the disciples like a rock band -they were 'the twelve' no matter how many were in it. This is false because Luke (24.33) refers to the eleven, since he remembered that Judas could hardly have been regarded as a disciple by then, if he was even alive. It is possible to argue, I suppose, that Luke referred to the actual number whereas the other three used 'the twelve' as a generic term for the apostles. But even the eleven won't do because according to John, Thomas, 'one of the twelve', was absent (20.14).
Thus this bit of the tale is a contradiction and I fail to see how it can be explained other than playing the 'big picture' and 'witnesses don't always agree' card. I think they would be fallacious excuses and merely advocating closing the eyes to unwelcome problems.
P.s I was apart from this, going to stay out of the debate (if there is one) but in fact the resurrection not being coherent is a very important reason for doubting that the gospels are accurate, let alone not eyewitness. I am willing -if the thread goes that way (it might not) to list the inconsistencies and contradictions and see how they can be explained.
Here's a general overview of the resurrection accounts. With comments intended to show just why there are seen to be problems.
Mark16 (NIV)
1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
Luke 24 (NIV)
1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Matthew 28 (NIV)
1. After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
Discrepancy 1. to anoint the body or look at the tomb? Luke and Mark seem to show that the original had the spices. Why does Matthew drop it? (p.s it might be because Matthew, as in Mark, say that the anointing at Bethany was to prepare Jesus' body for burial. So why would they need to go and do it now? John I notice, makes the passage refer to the need to keep -rather than sell it to give the money to the poor - because it will be needed for his burial)
John 20. (NKJV)
1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, (evidently Mary mother of James, is with her, because on reporting to the disciples, she says 'we', rather than 'I'. And Luke adds Joanna and a few others.)
Mark 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
they needn't worry because
Luke 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Mark 16. 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
John 1..and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
(I may say that the synoptics (1) agreeing with John about the stone rolled away makes it part of the original gospel story) So who rolled it away?
Matth. 2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
Then presumably the women arrive and find the stone rolled away and the angel sitting on it. The guard are lying on the ground quaking (because they do not run away until the angel delivers his message, apparently)
Matth.5 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay.
So, according to Luke
Luke 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. Well of course they didn't because the angel had already told them that he had risen.
Mark 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
so why were they wondering about this according to Luke?
Luke.4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground,
so the contradictions here are
Luke ...but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8 Then they remembered his words.
Mark 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
Mark 8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
Matthew. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
the difference in the message is evident.
Now the guards get to their feet and scurry off.
Matthew 11 While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12 When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13 telling them, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day.
(the problem here is that, if they were lying quaking on the ground while the angel delivered his message to the women, they don't seem to notice them. And if they had already fled as soon as the angel opened the tomb - or in fact, if they wait until the women come out, how do they know the tomb is empty? The only possibility is that they screw up the courage to look inside after the women have run off. But Matthew mentions none of that.
The Guards' tale begins to look very unfeasible and the explanation is the same as the one for why Mary asks the angel how she can bear Jesus when she has no husband when she actually does - shortly to be wed. The answer is that the writers confuse what they know with what Mary or the guards could have known. The sure sign of an invented tale.
However, while the women were still on their way to report to the disciples
Matthew 28.8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
Luke 9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.
John 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
Now, how in the name of wonder after being told that Jesus was risen and had gone ahead to Galilee and having run into him on the way back, would she say this? “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
Luke 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
There is worse to come.
Luke 13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him. 17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?” They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.” (I have to admit that I first took this as Cleophas saying that the women did not see Jesus but it now looks as though he is saying that the apostles (checking the tomb) did hot see him)
Now just check that back with Matthew who says quite plainly that the women DID see Jesus in person. Now, Cleophas and the other must have been there to hear when the women reported back and if so, must have heard their claim to have seen Jesus:-
Matthew 28.8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
Luke 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
Even if they did not believe the women (or as some apologists have tried to argue, womens' testimony was not valid in Jewish law) they would simply not report what they had claimed. If they reported the empty tomb and the vision of angels and the message that he had risen, how could they fail to mention that the women had claimed to see to Jesus in person? Especially as Luke doesn't even have the excuse that Jesus has already left for Galilee (though that doesn't stop him appearing in Matthew).
Now, while Cleophas and co are travelling off to Emmaus, the disciples are checking out the tomb.
John 3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.
Luke 12 (other ancient authorities add) Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.
John.10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes. 11 But Mary stood outside by the tomb weeping, and as she wept she stooped down and looked into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13 Then they said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?”
She said to them, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid Him.”
No 'Oh, hullo again.' No reference to the earlier discussions about Jesus has risen and gone to galilee much less 'I told them what you said, but they didn't believe me.' And no hint at all of having already met Jesus.
John. 14 Now when she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, and did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”
She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him, “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
No 'Oh, Hullo again.' However
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.
And evidently as we hear later, they didn't believe her again and must have begun to think her a bit obsessed. While all this is going on, Jesus has nipped off to the west on the Emmaeus road to intercept Cleophas and give the a lecture on scriptural prophecy concerning himself..
Luke 25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”
Problem. While Jesus has appeared to the Marys (twice to Mary Magdalene if we try to reconcile Matthew and John), there is no mention of this appearance to Simon. It is astonishing that not one of the evangelists described this appearance - not even Luke who reports it. How could none of them have know what occurred and, if the did, decided that it wasn't worth a mention? Surely the incoherence if not contradiction of the resurrection accounts is becoming plain - the evangelists are writing at cross -purposes.
Luke 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread. 36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Luke. 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
John 19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
Quite apart from John mentioning nothing about Jesus appearing to Cleophas, much less to Simon, there is the interesting matter of John (who has the spear -stab) showing the would in his side and Luke who does NOT have a spear stab does NOT have Jesus showing his side, because (so far as Luke is concerned, there is no stab - wound to exhibit.
Also of course, Matthew mentions nothing of this as, according to him, the disciples are packing their kitbags ready to depart for Galilee as instructed and Mark of course, has none of this. The material after verse 8 is a cobbled together summary of the other resurrection accounts added later and an expanded version of that added afterwards. (2) They are not original Mark
Luke 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” 45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
They may not have received the power from on high, but they certainly get the Holy Spirit according to John.
John 21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
The broiled fish event does appear in John, but not here. It appears in Galilee later on. One of those numerous examples of circulating stories or sayings that were used by the gospel writers but in different places and contexts. Can you begin to see that, not only are these discrepancies real and casr doubt on the evangelists as eyewitness, but give some clues as to how they worked on their material?
Luke 50 When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. 51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. 52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.
Acts continues directly following on from the same point in time.
Acts 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, (which follows on to the preamble to Luke, so the authorship is the same)
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Not according to John, as we saw, since Jesus had dished out helpings of the Holy Ghost to them not half an hour ago. And the disciples, of course, do not stay in the Jerusalem temple praising God, not according to Matthew. However, let's stretch a point and say that they first had to wait until Thomas came back.
John 24 Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” 26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[d] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
So Jesus came back eight days later and apparently stayed around for a while dong many other signs. And Luke (in Acts) seems to confirm this.
Luke/Acts 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Again they are still waiting for the Holy Ghost which John surely said they already had. However, finally, Jesus takes his leave of them for the last time.
Luke/Acts 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
And now, with Jesus having finally finished his teachings and instructions, they can at last carry out the instructions given by the angel and Jesus himself in Matthew to travel to Galilee ..so they can see Jesus!
Matthew 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
However, John 21New King James Version (NKJV)
21 After these things Jesus showed Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, (which to remove all doubt, is the sea of Galilee in the Tetrarchy of the same name) and in this way He showed Himself:
2 Simon Peter, Thomas called the Twin, Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together. 3 Simon Peter said to them, “I am going fishing.”
They said to him, “We are going with you also.” They went out and immediately got into the boat, and that night they caught nothing. 4 But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 Then Jesus said to them, “Children, have you any food?”
They answered Him, “No.”
6 And He said to them, “Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some.” So they cast, and now they were not able to draw it in because of the multitude of fish.
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, “It is the Lord!” Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment (for he had removed it), and plunged into the sea. 8 But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from land, but about two hundred cubits), dragging the net with fish. 9 Then, as soon as they had come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish which you have just caught.”
11 Simon Peter went up and dragged the net to land, full of large fish, one hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not broken. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, “Who are You?”—knowing that it was the Lord. 13 Jesus then came and took the bread and gave it to them, and likewise the fish. 14 This is now the third time Jesus showed Himself to His disciples after He was raised from the dead.
Matthew. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
Quite apart from the utter impossibility of John's 'third appearance' being true if the Luke's account is correct with Jesus popping in for coffee and a chat evey other day, it is hard to swallow Matthew's 'some doubted' unless Matthew's account with one appearance only - to the two Marys -is the correct version.
How can it be denied that the three accounts (as Mark has no resurrection account) are conflicting, contradictory and incoherent?
(1) aside from Matthew having rolled aside by an angel, presumably to scotch any suggestion that a couple of disciples might have done it.
(2) Mark 16:8 Some manuscripts have the following ending between verses 8 and 9, and one manuscript has it after verse 8 (omitting verses 9-20): Then they quickly reported all these instructions to those around Peter. After this, Jesus himself also sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen. [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]
(and the extended version)
Mark -9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-10-2012 at 05:43 AM..
Other people out there have done a good job - read their books. I could spend time myself but what's the point? To not do as good a job in attempting to prove to one anonymous person on the Internet something that he will never accept anyway? Why don't you just enumerate your contradictions instead of trying to be cute?
Here's a brief summary of events in case you forgot - hopefully this sounds familiar:
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.
QUESTION:
When was this written? What "scriptures" existed then and are being referred to?
Last edited by ancient warrior; 08-10-2012 at 05:41 AM..
Reason: typo
Your first case is invalid because neither gospel is an eyewitness account.
Of course, those who believe in the inerrancy of the bible generally believe that they are eye-witness accounts. More liberal biblical scholars, as I recall, believe they were at least based on eye-witness accounts even if the authors themselves were not eye-witnesses.
Quote:
In your second case, to which I certainly ascribe, is indeed the more likely scenario, since I am an agnostic atheist. However, I once was a fundamentalist Christian until evidence, or should I say lack of evidence, made me realize that I was wrong. In the event that I find evidence contrary to my current beliefs, I shall reconsider. In this challenge, I am simply demonstrating a specific case which has helped develop my current beliefs.
Understood.
Quote:
In your final case, an errant Bible would demonstrate that any possible god would not be as omnipotent as many profess and that he/she has little control over events of the World or the book used to bring humans to know/love him.
No, it demonstrates that whomever the authors of the various books included in the bible(s) were, they had imperfect knowledge and understanding about the nature and doings of God, and wrote from that imperfect perspective. Why are you so sure that God must of necessity be a master puppeteer or wanted to provide a book of dictation?
But, it is easier to stick with the fundamentalist ideas of God that you were raised with and since you cannot find that God, assume there isn't any God at all. Then there is no need for you to wrestle with the questions that one is left with if one realizes those fundamentalist views are untenable and simply lays them aside and starts from scratch. Being a fundamentalist black and white thinker, whether as a believer in God or as an atheist, is always the easiest course. Accepting that God may not operate in the way fundamentalists insist God must operate would make the whole question so much more complex, and that's scary to contemplate. I do understand the desire to keep it simple, believe me.
Yes the details are difficult to reconcile, except for some very clear facts that are attested to;
1.Jesus rose from the grave and was seen by many quite a few times.
2. He ascended into heaven.
3. His tomb is empty.
4. He commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Jesus name.
If you want to reject this, that's up to you. But even if there were no contradictions in the resurrection accounts, my guess is the OP would find some other reason to reject Jesus.
You have to remember, from 4 people you are going to get conflicting accounts. Police are well aware of this. In fact, if they get 4 witnesses that tell the exact same story to the letter, they start looking for a conspiracy. Think of it this way, if 4 people were going to write books that was full of lies, and cover up the fact that Jesus never did rise, wouldn't they work harder to coordinate their stories?
Your first case is invalid because neither gospel is an eyewitness account.
In your second case, to which I certainly ascribe, is indeed the more likely scenario, since I am an agnostic atheist. However, I once was a fundamentalist Christian until evidence, or should I say lack of evidence, made me realize that I was wrong. In the event that I find evidence contrary to my current beliefs, I shall reconsider. In this challenge, I am simply demonstrating a specific case which has helped develop my current beliefs.
In your final case, an errant Bible would demonstrate that any possible god would not be as omnipotent as many profess and that he/she has little control over events of the World or the book used to bring humans to know/love him.
Yes the details are difficult to reconcile, except for some very clear facts that are attested to;
1.Jesus rose from the grave and was seen by many quite a few times.
2. He ascended into heaven.
3. His tomb is empty.
4. He commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Jesus name.
If you want to reject this, that's up to you. But even if there were no contradictions in the resurrection accounts, my guess is the OP would find some other reason to reject Jesus.
You have to remember, from 4 people you are going to get conflicting accounts. Police are well aware of this. In fact, if they get 4 witnesses that tell the exact same story to the letter, they start looking for a conspiracy. Think of it this way, if 4 people were going to write books that was full of lies, and cover up the fact that Jesus never did rise, wouldn't they work harder to coordinate their stories?
RESPONSE:
>>1.Jesus rose from the grave and was seen by many quite a few times.<<
No. This claim was made by nonwitnesses writing legends 40-60 years after the event. It is only claimed that "believers" saw him, no Romans, no unbelieving Jews. I wonder why?
>>He ascended into heaven.<<
The same thing, but even fewer claimed witnesses. And it was supposed to have happend on the same day as the Resurrection from Bethany (Luke) or 40 days after the Resurrection from Mt Olivet (Acts).
>>. His tomb is empty.<<
Perhaps he was never in it, or if so, the body was moved.
>> He commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel of forgiveness of sins and eternal life in Jesus name.<<
Perhaps. Who witnessed this?
>>You have to remember, from 4 people you are going to get conflicting accounts. Police are well aware of this. In fact, if they get 4 witnesses that tell the exact same story to the letter, they start looking for a conspiracy. Think of it this way, if 4 people were going to write books that was full of lies, and cover up the fact that Jesus never did rise, wouldn't they work harder to coordinate their stories?<<
I'm afraid the situations are quite different. The is no claim that police reports are divinely inspired like the Bible. And the accounts are different because they were written at different times by different writers for different audiences. (Of course, Matthew and Luke copied much from Mark's account. All were writing long after the events in question).
Of course, those who believe in the inerrancy of the bible generally believe that they are eye-witness accounts. More liberal biblical scholars, as I recall, believe they were at least based on eye-witness accounts even if the authors themselves were not eye-witnesses.
Understood.
No, it demonstrates that whomever the authors of the various books included in the bible(s) were, they had imperfect knowledge and understanding about the nature and doings of God, and wrote from that imperfect perspective. Why are you so sure that God must of necessity be a master puppeteer or wanted to provide a book of dictation?
But, it is easier to stick with the fundamentalist ideas of God that you were raised with and since you cannot find that God, assume there isn't any God at all. Then there is no need for you to wrestle with the questions that one is left with if one realizes those fundamentalist views are untenable and simply lays them aside and starts from scratch. Being a fundamentalist black and white thinker, whether as a believer in God or as an atheist, is always the easiest course. Accepting that God may not operate in the way fundamentalists insist God must operate would make the whole question so much more complex, and that's scary to contemplate. I do understand the desire to keep it simple, believe me.
Regarding the red above...This is why I do not refer to the NT as 'The Scriptures'...Let's face it, they were letters written to the churches in order to educate them on 'The Scriptures'...Just as we have books today where the author attempts to convey what he knows about a certain subject...Just as Apocrypha were there in between the OT and the NT and were meant a study helps to show one what secular events were going on at that time also, and I believe that originally the monks that copied these footnoted to that effect, but as time went on people believed them to be Holy Scripture...If the Four Gospel accounts have inconsistancies, I would say it is because they were written by imperfect men attempting to illuminate those to whom they were preaching...What are the main points that we are to take away from the Gospel accounts?...That Yeshua came into the world, that He came to preach the Gospel to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, that He was crucified, that He was raised on the third day and that He ascended to the right hand of HaShem...The details of these accounts, while moot, are written by well intentioned men attempting to show proof in relation to 'The Scriptures' of HaMeshiach Yeshua...When the NT as we know it today was up for cannonization, there were more that 350 Gospel accounts that were collected to wade through, because the NT would have been a tome with just the Gospel accounts themselves, the four that we know today were settled upon as having the best and most concise information regarding the origins of HaMeshiach and The Way...Just as I see inconsistancies within the pages of various books on a paticular subject by different authors I notice and take from them the common thread that runs through them all collectively, and so with the Gospels I do also...All the accounts say that Yeshua was betrayed, All the accounts say that Yeshua was crucified, All the accounts say that Yeshua was raised from the dead, All the accounts say that Yeshua's tomb was empty, All the accounts say that Yeshua appeared before people...What's the problem here?...
When was this written? What "scriptures" existed then and are being referred to?
Ooooh, you got me. Oh wait, obviously the "Scriptures" in question is the OT. (c.f. Acts 17:11-12)
Not sure of your point...
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