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Old 08-17-2012, 03:01 PM
 
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Genesis 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

If one rejects the Fall of Mankind recorded in Genesis 3, than they are accepting the first lie - Evolution.

Revelation 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


The line is being drawn and decisions must be made what side you will be on. The choices are either redemption through Jesus Christ or accepting the lie that your eyes can be opened and be as gods "knowing" good and evil.


Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
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Old 08-17-2012, 03:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
[/i]
The line is being drawn and decisions must be made what side you will be on. The choices are either redemption through Jesus Christ or accepting the lie that your eyes can be opened and be as gods "knowing" good and evil.
Not such a nice thing to say... I've never understood why Chrstians are the only ones (not all of them, of course) who say "believe my way - everything else is lies." Particularly since Chrstians were some kind of bastardized branch of Judaism - and the Jews never thought like that.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:43 PM
 
Location: small Southern town balabusta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
Not such a nice thing to say... I've never understood why Chrstians are the only ones (not all of them, of course) who say "believe my way - everything else is lies." Particularly since Chrstians were some kind of bastardized branch of Judaism - and the Jews never thought like that.
Agree. Furthermore, it kind of makes me chuckle (okay, maybe that's not the right word) when others tell you what you have to believe in to obtain redemption. I was born to think for myself, and how can I help what I believe? I don't believe that someone had to die for me because I was born with free will. It makes no sense to me, no matter how many times I tried to because I was told I had to believe. I'm not buying one word of it.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,899 posts, read 18,442,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikelee81 View Post
Genesis 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

If one rejects the Fall of Mankind recorded in Genesis 3, than they are accepting the first lie - Evolution.

Revelation 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


The line is being drawn and decisions must be made what side you will be on. The choices are either redemption through Jesus Christ or accepting the lie that your eyes can be opened and be as gods "knowing" good and evil.


Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Either you are with (god) or against (god).

Drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and demanding someone to choose sides is a common tactic for manipulation in a world that is not anywhere near as black and white.


Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists - YouTube


Do Leading Questions Work in Cross-Examination? - YouTube


Are You a Child of the Devil or of God? - YouTube




But the wise truth is still reasserted, even in our own modern mythology:


Only A Sith Deals In Absolutes - YouTube
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Old 08-18-2012, 05:11 PM
 
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So by what it says in the sith ideal...USA and the western world who uses Religion (Christianity) with murder and war, and underhandedness, and oppression and sanctions, and lies about plants being bad..etc....using Democracy as a front face, speaking untruth about freedom and liberty for all...when they slaughter the meek and mild, and take...or impose a system of sin and evil upon all....and if you rebell...You are the bad guys.....remember sex trade is not condoned...nor is Gay and lesbianism...or beastiality...Yet these things are being done under that claok of democracy...So ..when they bring out the bats and tazers...and subdue the masses to perform all that God said not to do, while imprisoning others who have God on their minds...and a plant in their hands as a peace offering....think about the sith, and what George W Bush uttered in the winds...once upon a time...who are now killing Talaban (Holy people)...to ride them of their free trade, and free lifestyle....in a sort of way....yep no one can live for free....it is undemocractic....So is it freedom and liberty for all?...no only for those who pay, for the Free Gifts God once Gave to all..."I GIVE YOU EVERYTHING"....now we see with both eyes?...It is in the distribution of that which is where Humans fail to understand Giving like God....and so the lies continue to spew out of the beasts mouth peice...saying more this and more that will come with more taxes and higher prices to live in this sin and evil...and now the winds, and woes, and wrath...oh well...seems someone is on the wrong side of the fence when tooting economic gains, while their lands go to ruin under them plagues, pestilences, woes and wrath...because they do not play nice in the sandbox...Murdering, allowing to be raped, and disinfranchised from the givens, the children of God, is not something God takes lightly....Do we see the most high's Justice now?...and who would war on God?...kinda unthinkable...but there they are...building more weapons for more wars...for more death...for more $$$...and who are they killing today?...Plant growers..and sheep herders of a certain ilk....who had nothing to do with WTC 9/11 (which was a God send onto their monument of death and their IDOL) That the Alquida claimed to have done...ALquida are not Talaban or vise versa....So here we have a war, using lies and underhandedness...to first support them warlords to fight a dirty battle...and then when comes time to bestow the rewards for doing that, they are cut off...and sacked with war by those who claimed they would help them in the end ....see...USA is a at the root...a nation born out of the EU...Yes? a Strong and mighty Nation?...Yes?...full of Evils and Sins?...Yes!...and what Bin Laden was telling his people was true, about the oppressor of their trade, and way of living..and the bribes made to make them allied to fight in their dirty wars with RUSSIA.....and SO the Justification of the attack on the World under that IDOL who sanctioned this in secret....that many were sacrificed in their names....and then...they were tricked and now they are being wiped out, and silenced, and painted the criminals.........was the knock down of the WTC Justified?...depends on which side of the fence you stand on...I say it was only a building...and the true number of dead has not been disclosed...nor has the real hand which did the deed.....the evidence presented by the USA of those involved in flying planes into those buildings is refutable, and some of those very people have come forward saying I am alive and did no such thing....But the evidence stands till this day as their evidence to make war....and while they are at it wipe out any and all that are opposed to their way of living...Democracy is Greek...Rome was built with that ideal...pay the tax, while we slaughter the innocent and take what they want....it has been going on for centeries...same old same old...is it right?...NO!....But they do not care about right and wrong..they only care that we are the pawns, and the sacrifices made onto their bent ALtar of death...So the game of destroying the planet continues for $$...and all who use and work for this IDOL...are tied to her sins and evil...if you do not stand out of her sins and evils,,,You will be judged as supporters of her crimes....onto the whole Earth....the world Humans are making is bent out of order under that IDOL...and they will not put it down untill it is all destroyed by their own handyworks in sin and evil.....shame...Jesus said let em be....ok....but now I see why!
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Golden, CO
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Chango, I don't know how much you know about the Mormon endowment ceremony, but it is all about taking the story of Adam and Eve and finding as much meaning and analogy as one can with humanity's journey and one's personal journey. The ceremony adds to the story that is told in the Bible.

None of the ancient writers from any culture were idiots. People had been thinking about life and what it means to be human a long time before people were writing literature. If you haven't yet, read the Epic of Gilgamesh or Homer's Iliad. If you reflect on them as you have reflected on the story of Adam and Eve you will find other reflections on life, etc.

All good fictional literature, like all good art, has something to say about the human condition.
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:30 PM
 
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Default Adam and Eve as allegory

Many of these postings reflect the problem of making an interpretation from an English translation of a text originally in another language. The Torah is in Hebrew, and one of the hallmarks of its literary style is wordplay on Hebrew root words.

"Adam" is not a proper name. In Hebrew it simply means "man" generically. It is derived from "Adamah" (earth) and "Adom" (red). So the Bible is saying that "Man" was created from red clay. "Eve" is also not a proper name. The Hebrew is "Chavah" (from the root word for "life"). So a plausible translation is "Mother of all the living".

The fact that these names are generic rather than personal is in the first place a tip-off that the story is an allegory of the universal human condition.

The story continually uses the word "arum" ("naked"). So this is an allegory of every human's birth into infancy and childhood (a "Garden of Eden") and then awareness of nakedness--- that is, entrance into puberty and sexual awakening.

It is at this point that the serpent appears (clearly allegorical, since actual snakes don't speak). As in every ancient mythology, the snake is an obvious phallic symbol---- it appears to Eve when she is TEMPTED by the Tree of Knowledge (puberty and the beginning of sexual awareness and sexual desire). Further evidence of this allusion is that the word the Torah chooses to describe the serpent is also "arum" ("naked"), but here there is a play on the word's secondary meaning,("cunning", "sly").

Next, after eating the delicious fruit (responding to promptings of sexual desire), Eve gives Adam some of the fruit to eat (Adam, of course, is also entering puberty).

When they decide to eat from the Tree of Immortality, God banishes them from the Garden of Eden (childhood), and simply announces their adult functions: the man will till the soil and earn his living through his sweat; Eve will bear children with labor pains.

Although allegorically and poetically described as "curses", this is simply a statement of every person's actual experience. There is no "original sin", or anything else that all of us do not know from our own experience. Since God's very first command to Adam and Eve is "Be fruitful and multiply", we already KNOW they are mortal, because they must replace themselves with a new generation. So obviously at some point they are going to die. (It should be obvious to everyone that a work as great as the Torah was meant to read with ACTIVE INTELLIGENCE, not literalized and atomized by opportunistically quoting single verses out of context. Among other things, the Torah is a NARRATIVE).

The serpent will also "crawl on its belly" (its allegorical function as a phallic symbol is no longer a necessary part of human adult experience). The serpent is now simply what it IS--- a common reptile.

The angels with flaming swords who bar re-entry into the Garden of Eden simply represent the fact that adult regression to the effortless nourishment and carefree existence of childhood is now forbidden ever after.

Last edited by DonCarlodiCalatrava; 10-23-2014 at 12:54 PM.. Reason: punctuation
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Old 10-23-2014, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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Originally Posted by Vansdad View Post
It can represent humans change from animal to conscious being.
I've had this thought too (though, one correction: humans ARE a part of the animal kingdom). I always wondered if it was a metaphor for evolution.

Deeper than that, though, I believe, is the common idea (among a whole variety of religions) that things were once wonderful and easy, and then SOMETHING happened to screw everything up. A la (sorry, still have never figured out the MS equivalent of key caps) Pandora's box. And this I believe hearkens to a deeply subconscious memory of when we were infants, or perhaps even when we were in the womb, and everything seemed easy and there seemed to be no complications. If we were hungry, food just appeared (at least as far as our perception went). If we were cold, we magically became warm again, not knowing or understanding that it was a blanket or human arms that had accomplished that for us. Nothing was expected of us. At all.

Then later, life got harder...and it felt very sudden to us.

We yearn for that "easy" time, are subconsciously quite sorrowful that it is over, and we want to know why it happened. Religious myth and allegory about "when things went from paradise to bad" really just reflects that: the whole nostalgic "Why did things have to go from good and easy to bad and hard?" feeling that I believe nearly one of us has deep down. We wish we could understand how it happened to us, as individuals, as human beings, in our own personal experience, and although logically we can, that inner toddler inside of us is still confused, and wants to know why, and if there could have been anything we could have done about it. There was: we could have simply not grown up! (Our subconscious is thinking.) Just as Adam and Eve could simply never have grown up (experienced the growth of knowledge), and Pandora never had to open that box.

Because we have these inner feelings, origin stories of "the fall" and the like are easy for us to swallow on a deep belief (v. logical) level...so they stick.

We blame ourselves...as deeply, we understand that it was our own selves, our own body and biology, that made us grow up, not someone else who made that happen to us. Yet a tiny part of ourselves also understands that SOME of it was influenced by what's outside of us - i.e., our culture and society, the insistence of our parents that we mature and so on. This is mirrored in religious "the fall" stories; the box was right there for Pandora and anyone else to open, why did there have to be a box available to them at all? The tree was placed in the middle of the garden, and further, the serpent encouraged Adam and Eve and tricked them by saying God wasn't telling the truth, why did the tree have to be put there at all? Why would God allow the serpent to come into the garden at all? Indeed, why would God create the serpent at all (considering that in the story, God created everything)? If God did create the serpent, why did he allow it to be evil, or for all we know, deliberately create the serpent to be evil? Aren't the serpent and the tree a deliberately placed trap, just as Pandora's box was a deliberately placed trap?

All these stories reflect our inner feeling, "Why, why, why did we have to grow up, even if we didn't want to?"

Yet in a sideways way, the A&E story is also giving humans a defense and telling us we aren't just rotten beings who like to disobey, some things ARE at least partially out of control...including growing up, and knowing more. A&E didn't place the tree there and point it out as if in temptation. They didn't, further, put the snake in there to talk them into eating the fruit. Pandora didn't put the box there where it was tempting and easy to open. Indeed, A&E didn't even put their own curiosity and desire to find things out into their own minds; God did that. And Pandora didn't create her own curiosity, since she didn't create herself.

With all this combined, A&E covers all the bases that we instinctively need. It provides a beginning that appeals to our curious "why and how?" natures, it gives us hope that there was such a thing as perfection at one time, making perfection believable and by extension, giving us hope that perfection may happen again (heaven, redemption), it allows us to chide ourselves for doing something wrong, again, another very human inclination (which is actually an attempt at control, because if we caused something, then we can fix it too, ultimately, or simply not cause something similar next time), and it even, to an extent, allows someone else to at least partially be to blame for our woes, so we can have a reason for pain, death, disease, abuse and so on.

It even gives us backup for our schism feelings about parents: they love us unconditionally (hugs, kisses, storming over to the school to demand someone do something about our being bullied or having our lunch money stolen, their pride in us); they don't love us unconditionally (the Bible equivalent: God ejects Adam and Eve - the parental human equivalent: the fury and lack of love in our parents' eyes when they feel we've done something really bad...where did the love suddenly go???); punishments that hurt and humiliate us don't mean they don't love us - a hard one to reconcile (explained in A&E that God lets them know some day, there will be ultimate redemption); they sometimes even seem to be tricking us, which infuriates us (God tempting A&E deliberately with the tree and when that didn't work, allowing or perhaps inserting the serpent into the garden seemingly in an attempt to hurry up A&E's falling from grace); there's still always hope to win back a parent's love no matter how "bad" we've been (Mom is so mad that she just said I can "never have Wii again," but later she may soften that and say "Okay, after your punishment you can have the Wii back"; the Bible promises an ultimate redeemer; in Pandora's box, the last entity to emanate out of the box is Hope).

MOST religion is a collection of attempts to explain the unexplainable, the undesirable, and bad conditions such as disease, harm to us and so on; and also to soothe us with a way out (i.e. redemption, heaven, not having to reincarnate any more or whatever). But A&E is the whole kit and kaboodle, it covers perhaps every possible base as far as cause and effect, every possible human emotion and condition (love, contentment, anger, retribution - on God's part - and revenge, fear, humiliation, regret, curiosity, rebellion, lying, cheating, loving, caring, plenty, scarcity, protection, danger, titillation with the nudity and it's-just-you-and-me man/woman existence). I don't know what A&E DOESN'T cover. I actually love the story - it brings about every emotion I think I've ever felt, and I'm not Christian or Jewish. IMO, A&E is one of the most amazing psychological sketches ever written, by anyone.

Last edited by JerZ; 10-23-2014 at 01:42 PM..
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Good necro. I would add to the two previous posts that the idea of "original sin" stems from the fact that the primal instincts are for self preservation and self gratification. It is a survival thing, but socialization brings with it the need to submerge our own gratification in what is good for the group as a whole. Part of "groing up" in the need to recognize and acquiesce in this. It is a real tension for the rest of our lives.
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Old 10-23-2014, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Southern California
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Here's something else that's interesting (to me):

In the A&E in paradise story, God and the serpent are equally honest, and equally tricky.

Nor is the serpent 100% delivering badness and evil to Adam and Eve. He is also delivering (or encouraging them to deliver to themselves) the capacity for knowledge.

God tells A&E that if they eat of the fruit of the tree, they will "surely die." Obviously, they were going to take that as: We'll take a bite, then drop dead then and there.

The serpent tells A&E that they "will not die," as in immediately. But they don't know this doesn't entail "...at least immediately" any more than they could know God means "at least not immediately." And both God and the serpent KNOW that A&E are innocent and will take information at face value, as presented to them.

Here, God and the serpent are each delivering a half-truth, via what they knew A&E would infer from what they were saying.

What God says DOES come true: ultimately, after hundreds of years, A&E each die. And what the serpent says absolutely comes true also: they obtain knowledge they would never otherwise have had.

Yet the serpent is described, in an obviously facial moue-esque way, "crafty," and God is described as "wise." BOTH wanted to manipulate A&E into doing something, or not doing something. God wanted, at least at first, to manipulate A&E into not eating the fruit; therefore He over-warned them saying they would "surely die," again, as if one bite and they'd drop to their knees and fade into dust right there. He didn't add, "...but first you'll have like 800 years to live your lives." (And interestingly, He also may have manipulated them into the fall, using the fact of putting the tree right there to tempt them plus putting the serpent in the Garden...I'll get to that in a second). The serpent manipulated them into eating the fruit (obviously). Both manipulated and both told incomplete truths.

Neither the serpent nor God wanted A&E to do what A&E wanted to do and, from all appearances, neither God nor the serpent wanted A&E to succeed rather than fail.

In this story, God and the serpent are both wily and both tell half-truths or omit truths in order to achieve what they want.

Just something interesting. Religious adherents like to say God let A&E eat the fruit because God "wants us to let us make our own choices and have free will," but in the Fall story, God appears to not be just letting A&E make their own choices and practice free will, but rather, actually pushing them toward their own demise - HIS (God's) choice, apparently (I mean it's not subtle, he didn't "just allow" this to unfold at all, he PUT the tree there, he made it tempting with a "don't touch!" that any parent of a small child knows is code for "This must be something really fascinating!" and he creates the serpent with its own "crafty" nature that He, God, created). Eating the fruit and disobeying God is something A&E WOULDN'T have wanted - indeed, they had to be tricked and framed by both God AND the serpent in order to do it. It's as if God were upping the ante with the serpent because A&E at first simply refused to disobey.

Now...another assumption is that God told A&E not to eat the fruit in order to protect them from evil and death. But if this were the primary goal, God would have simply not put the tree there in the first place. I always think of an analogy something along these lines: I put a huge plate of fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies onto the dining room table and tell my two-year-old, "DON'T eat these cookies! Don't you dare touch them. They're unhealthy, you could get heart disease." (Equivalent: God's "you will surely die" as if it would be immediate, whereas it takes hundreds of years for that to happen, just as it will take years, probably decades, for the child to get heart disease from eating too many cookies.) Then I add, "Plus, you will be punished. Severely. Do not eat EVEN ONE of these delicious, tempting cookies that I am PLACING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, or that's it, you're in trouble for good." I then walk away and close the door so that these cookies are directly within eyesight - and within easy reach. I leave, and watch him through a keyhole. He doesn't eat and doesn't eat and doesn't eat the cookies. I up the ante by sending in another authoritative figure, perhaps his father or an uncle, or someone he doesn't even know but who says s/he is a teacher or a friend or a relative, who then says, "You won't get heart disease, go ahead, eat the cookie." My preschooler finally buckles and eats a cookie and I come storming in, thrust open the front door, throw a suitcase at my son and say, "Okay, get the fugg out!"

If I really didn't want my son to get cookies and I really wanted to protect him from eating heart disease...instead of all that rigamarole, I'd, well, just not put a plate of cookies in front of him. A lot simpler, no? So there had to be an ulterior motive on my part. And although God's ways are apparently "mysterious," and although people are not God/gods, well, come on. God is God, he can't protect A&E easily? Obviously, he DID NOT have protection as his ultimate goal. Nor, as I stated before, did he have "choice" as his ultimate goal...since he disliked their initial obedient choice so much that he pushed it via the serpent (either actively, putting the serpent in that place and that time, or passively, by creating the serpent to be evil and allowing it to go where A&E were).

That overall idea, the motivation, for that part of the A&E story - an obvious setup - may be an insight into the minds of the writer(s), it's hard to say. It could be a reflection of deep-down mistrust of authority, including God or gods. Again...just really hard to say.

Last edited by JerZ; 10-23-2014 at 02:20 PM..
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