Americans United Warns Fire Department To Stop Using Trucks To Transport Religious Statue (pray, God)

[irishmom]

Originally Posted by satanoid

My tax dollars pay for the firefighters uniforms, and the fire truck.

They belong to ME and my fellow taxpayers.

Use them for the job we pay you to do, or not at all.

What about at Christmas when the firefighters here have one guy dressed as Santa on the engine and throw toys out to all the children in the neighborhood? Or when they visit homeless shelters to transport food from the food bank? Why is the statue any different than that? I think people get a bit too caught up in "my taxpayer money" at times.

[satanoid]

Santa is a secular symbol, and therefor, not a violation of the establishment clause.

I don't believe in santa, or god - but really, if the fire department wants to participate in charitable endeavors, the charity should pay a small stipend to cover the cost of government resources.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by FlashTheCash

Americans United Warns New Jersey Fire Department To Stop Using Trucks To Transport Religious Statue

Thursday, September 27, 2007

Department's Decision To Haul Depiction Of Virgin Mary Violates Church-State Separation, Says Watchdog Group

Americans United for Separation of Church and State has told a New Jersey fire department to stop transporting a nine-foot-tall statue of the Virgin Mary to area churches.

Americans United received complaints after media accounts detailed how members of the Jackson Mills Fire Company transported the statue, known as “Our Lady of America, the Immaculate Virgin,” to New York City for a Sept. 11 observance and then to a church in Howell, N.J.

In New York, the firefighters, dressed in their official uniforms, carried the statue into the Church of St. Peter and helped install it near the altar. In Howell, the firefighters transported the statue to St. Veronica’s Roman Catholic Church and used a fire truck, with lights flashing and sirens blaring, as part of a processional that culminated in the parking lot of the church.

The motorcade also included fire trucks from nearby Jackson Township and police vehicles. The firefighters then joined members of the Knights of Columbus in carrying the statue into the church, and the event concluded with a special mass.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, said private vehicles should have been used to transport the religious icon.

“Have these guys never heard of U-Haul?” Lynn asked. “The use of this statue for worship is a purely religious matter and should be handled through private channels. No arm of the government need be involved.”

Lynn pointed out that the statue, which is touring the country, was transported from its home in St. Louis by a volunteer driver with a private vehicle. The same policy should have been followed in New Jersey, he said.

In a Sept. 26 letter to Jackson Fire Chief Mike Lubertazzi, Americans United attorneys pointed out that the activity surrounding the statue is wholly religious and should not be aided, endorsed or promoted by units of government.

AU also rejects claims that the firefighters engaged in these actions during their free time, noting that they used official vehicles and wore their uniforms.

“The fire company’s actions also conveyed an unmistakable message of religious endorsement generally, and endorsement of the Catholic faith in particular,” AU attorneys Alex Luchenitser and Heather Weaver wrote to Lubertazzi. “Firefighters not only transported the religious statue to New York City in official department vehicles, but they also donned their official department uniforms, including their fire-department badges, while doing so. As members of the public stood by to watch, the firefighters helped carry the statue into St. Peter’s, where they installed it in the church’s sanctuary, smiling and posing for photographs afterward.”

Noting the similar activity in Howell, the letter asserted, “A reasonable observer would perceive that the fire company has placed its imprimatur on the ‘Our Lady of America’ statue….Indeed, the department appears to have become a de facto cosponsor of the statue’s tour of the New York and New Jersey region.”

The statue’s travels are sponsored by a group called the Our Lady of America Center. The organization based the statue on appearances of the Virgin Mary claimed by an Ohio nun, Sister Mary Ephrem, who died in 2000. The nun first claimed to have received visions of the Virgin Mary in 1956. Her followers believe that if the statue is installed at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, D.C., the country will be protected from evil.

Americans United: Americans United Warns New Jersey Fire Department To Stop Using Trucks To Transport Religious Statue

I volunteer at our local volunteer fire company. Although we are "volunteer" we get a good deal of our operating funds from the Gov't.

I may agree (politically) that the Gov't should stay out of religion, but I'd hate to be the poor guy that would have to tell the guys in our department that they can't express their faith.
For example,we have a company chaplain the begins every company meeting with a prayer, and nobody could make that tradition end.

[irishmom]

Originally Posted by satanoid

Santa is a secular symbol, and therefor, not a violation of the establishment clause.

I don't believe in santa, or god - but really, if the fire department wants to participate in charitable endeavors, the charity should pay a small stipend to cover the cost of government resources.

Not to stir the pot, buuuutttttt...

Santa is totally associated with Christmas...secular symbol or not, it's a religious Holiday that brings Santa out. But if the Fire Department, Marines (toys for Tots ring a bell), Police (they also do lots of community charitable activites for Holidays and in general) want to donate their time to a worthy cause using the resources provided by my tax dollars, well I say go ahead. I'd rather see it go to those types of things than more wars or meaningless reasearch projects or pork belly projects, just saying.

[FlashTheCash]

Originally Posted by Oakback

I volunteer at our local volunteer fire company. Although we are "volunteer" we get a good deal of our operating funds from the Gov't.

I may agree (politically) that the Gov't should stay out of religion, but I'd hate to be the poor guy that would have to tell the guys in our department that they can't express their faith.

Was the fire department established for the expression of religious faith? The only thing prohibited is civil authority over religion.

Are the fire men expressing their religion by using their civil authority to influence the religion of others?

For example,we have a company chaplain the begins every company meeting with a prayer, and nobody could make that tradition end.

Who pays the Chaplain? Does anyone object to his prayers? What are the religious views of those who attend the meeting?

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by FlashTheCash

Was the fire department established for the expression of religious faith? The only thing prohibited is civil authority over religion. To protect the lives and property of the citizens in our community.
Are the fire men expressing their religion by using their civil authority to influence the religion of others?

Who pays the Chaplain? Does anyone object to his prayers? What are the religious views of those who attend the meeting?

.


Faith helps when your putting your life on the line.
No one is paid. We are all volunteer.
Everyone is welcome to express their faith any way they want. Just so happens we all tend to agree.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by Oakback

.


Faith helps when your putting your life on the line.
No one is paid. We are all volunteer.
Everyone is welcome to express their faith any way they want. Just so happens we all tend to agree.

What if somebody didn't agree? Just curious...

[SergeantL]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

What if somebody didn't agree? Just curious...

Then as he wrote, they are free to express or not express as they wish.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

What if somebody didn't agree? Just curious...

I close friend of mine in the company who is on the Board, is a firefighter and a paramedic, is Jewish. There is no problem

[FlashTheCash]

Originally Posted by Oakback

. Faith helps when your putting your life on the line.

Are you saying that the opening prayer at your company meeting is just a means to the accomplishment of a government objective? Namely, public safety. To be more precise, fire protection.