Simple "Origins" Question. Can a Christian answer it? (prophets, atheism)

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by Sir Les

what is the opposite of Nothing?....That is the answer.

Everything.

[tinynot]

First of all, why did the words Big Bang in my post show up in bold red. I didn't do that, so whats up?
Am I mistaken that I was posting in a Christian forum?

I didn't post in this forum as a debate. Is every forum on city data a debate forum? I have been told that Politics and Controversies is a debate forum too. I answered the question: Simple "origins" Question. Can a Christian answer it. I was sincere, and I certainly wasn't trying to tell another that my thoughts were superior to theirs. Wasn't trying to sway someone to my idea, nor was I trying to impress an atheist with my thought. It is quite obvious how an atheist thinks. One particular post, "there have been no satisfactory answers". Does the poster think other posters are trying to impress or give an answer that be pondered for correctness? I don't think so, posts reflect beliefs whether they are satisfactory to another poster or not. I don't care what someone else thinks of my post.

I asked the question about how many atheists answered in this forum because I don't see why they come to the Chrisitanity forum to knock down Christian values. I would also like to know how many Christians go to the atheist forum to knock down their beliefs.

I believe in God.

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by tinynot

First of all, why did the words Big Bang in my post show up in bold red. I didn't do that, so whats up?

It is not in red when I look at it. Words will show up red in a post if you did a "search" for those words.

Am I mistaken that I was posting in a Christian forum?

Your post is in the general Religion and Spiritualy forum.

I didn't post in this forum as a debate. Is every forum on city data a debate forum?

Just about LOL.

I have been told that Politics and Controversies is a debate forum too. I answered the question: Simple "origins" Question. Can a Christian answer it. I was sincere, and I certainly wasn't trying to tell another that my thoughts were superior to theirs. Wasn't trying to sway someone to my idea, nor was I trying to impress an atheist with my thought. It is quite obvious how an atheist thinks. One particular post, "there have been no satisfactory answers". Does the poster think other posters are trying to impress or give an answer that be pondered for correctness? I don't think so, posts reflect beliefs whether they are satisfactory to another poster or not. I don't care what someone else thinks of my post.

I asked the question about how many atheists answered in this forum because I don't see why they come to the Chrisitanity forum to knock down Christian values. I would also like to know how many Christians go to the atheist forum to knock down their beliefs.

I believe in God.

The Religion and Spirituality forum, just as the Politics and Controversies forum, is by its nature, moot. So it kind of goes without saying that you will get debates.

[Sir Les]

Originally Posted by PanTerra

Everything.

Yep..that is correct...So you know God is a/ or are intelligent being/beings...and when posed with the nothing problem...he/she/it resorted to opposites....and took form there/everything, and brought that in to the picture of Nothing...

"I Give you everything"....As everything is a free Gift of God...as it is written...those who say they believe, should not pay for it~~But recieve it in full..as a Gift, and with thanksgiving share and care and multiply that out in sequencal order to make more living things Live.......hence the IDOL of Engraven Images, Jesus was kicking at, and out of his fathers houses,above and below, was for a good reason...Moses knew the second commandment..and all the others...that the Jews did not follow in, out of the wilderness...and then they went into Canaan...and took it with coveting eyes and hearts and minds, Bloodshed, murder, and other hostilities...Breaking many commandments....So Moses did not enter it...as it was taken in violation of the commandments he brought down from God's mountain.

Then they made a Idol of engraven Image, and made people accept it, as it was called upon to buy, and sell, and sacrifice sin offerings and such at the temple...This is what Jesus was Kicking at...MONEY...it is a law of God not to make this important for life or to even use, or have before God in his house, or anywhere else........and that is exactly what they were imposing back then...and Joining in with the Romans..and such...yep..slaughtering countless innocence~contrabann...and today...Prohibition of Plants....wonder why we have this paradoxal line out of order...still.

Now God did not make that IDOL ( a dead thing of stone, or metal, engraven )...nor did God Give that which takes aways "the free gifts" of Life and God...for that takes away the givens, and makes one either pay for them a false value, enslave the one or many to work for it rather than work for God, or do without...and now one can also not have any of the givens...if they do not hold any Money or work for Money and or pay tax to the system....."Free trade" is a lie, and so is "freedom"...and the words "liberty for all" is misspoken if you look at how full the prisons really are!!...another twisted and contorted Ideal off of the Lie the liars made into a demigod....and while working for Money, in what way is that tending and keeping the Garden well and in good stewardship?...if it is now being polluted for $$$?....surely not a healthy estate being created here or there?....oh yah~They do not care about healthy estates, cause they now profit off of the Hospital system and bent pharmacuticals......they only care about $$$$....SO what is next in line for the coming children that are to be born here?....destitution, destruction of the eco systems, and other living things...and a toxic nightmare to deal with...how nice a gift humans are making for their heirs to inheirit....eh?...oh , what is that?...they will have lots of money?...how does money feed the people, if the food supply is tainted with toxins and or is not there to feed them?....Money will not keep em alive for long...But that truth will only be recognized when it is upon them it seems...and so here comes the drought, and the fire, and the storms of woe.....and still they do not seem to care....wonder why?....
Whats that they say.???..Money will solve their problems?...not from where I am standing...but it surely has created them!!!...

[rifleman]

tinynot, here's what you said in your most recent post:

"One particular post, "there have been no satisfactory answers". Does the poster think other posters are trying to impress or give an answer that be pondered for correctness? "

Nope. Please... go back and re-read my original OP. Up to post no. 19 (this is all from my memory, and I prob'ly should have written them all down, but I just now quick-scanned them all) no-one, Christian or otherwise

...[but of course, by my OP I was looking for the Christian answer, obviously. I know the atheist answer: we don't know! And are happy with that for now as well]


...gave us any joy as to what, physically, not spiritually, the Creator made His universe out of.

And why did I ask that?

Because we atheists are regularly accused of claiming the construction, the literal formation, of this universe, out of an impossible NOTHING! As in, it can't be done, so our {atheist} version is all wet and full of holes to boot! And yet, according to all the biblical accounts and explanations by Christians posting here through my 4+ yrs on C-D, they always claim He made it up out of NOTHING. So... it's apparently some special formulation of "NOTHING" particles. Or?

So I asked a very simple question would you not agree? What's the Christian biblical NOTHING made of? Or perhaps, where di cit come from? the same question could and has been applied, with similar silence as a response, did your God come from if everything requires a Designer and Creator? who Created him? And out of what etherial or physical materials? but for now, let's leave it at my incredibly simple {SIMPLE-IMPLE!!!} Question, OK?

I then clarified this question again on my post #19, and again on... what was it, #38 perhaps? Anyhow, the debate then drifts off into Evolution, which I'm happy to engage anyone on, but just not here.

So let's look at some of the Christian responses, to which I think I accurately noted, only one person stepped up; VansDad, and I gave him credit. And I'm also allowed to take on his response since it required unadulterated MAGIC, which is hardly the stuff of physical reality, now is it? Plus, your god has, since then, NEVER duplicated any such miraculous creations.

Sort of makes an intellectually honest person ponder and wonder, don't it, Wonderkid?

Let's press on though ,and check some of the Christian responses. Which btw, I see as obvious obfuscations and/or deflections. You are of course free to consider them any way you chose, but try to be honest with yourself: imagine you'd asked this SIMPLE question and then look at these answers:

(Oh yes, I also re-posted AREQUIPA:s v. humorous post just because we all need a good laugh from time to time in the deadly Christian/Atheist debating biz here. "Smilodon take-away"; too funny. and his description of the Wall Street bonobos is also spot on. though they might take a strong personal exception and somehow find a way to hack into his personal finances and fiddle them just a twig...)

Originally Posted by AREQUIPA

...I can see a counter -argument which I find fairly good reason not to doubt that our brains are just the survival mechanism we evolved since it was about the only thing we had to stop us becoming Smilodon - take - away once we ran out of trees.

But I can understand why you can't. Or maybe it's just looking at hairy chimps and being unable to believe that guys in suits and ties working out how to trash the economy are anything to do with a Bonobo playing with its poo.

So now then: (& to re-iterate, there's no misunderstandings here now, right?) Let's cut to the highly intelligent responses to my SIMPLE question about what, physically, the Creator's Universe was constructed out of, if not NOTHING (note some editing for brevity's sake, or if it's way off my OP topic):

Hmmm... I didn't ask what the opposite of NOTHING was. Just "What is the biblical NOTHING composed of. Bad answer, unrelated. <sigh>

Well, I hope you now understand the process! It's not that you post your ideas and then don't anticipate some responses. It's lal up for good old honest debate. yIf ou don't want that, you don't post here.

Hmmm. Again, what was the NOTHING composed of? <sigh #2>

Hmmm: How He did it? Again, comprehension skills seem to be at an all-time low here. <sigh #3>

Ah yes, it always seem to take a logical atheist to re-set the proper course here. Thanks Shiloh1: you obviously have superior reading & comprehension skills, or you don't see it all as a logical trap as the Christians probably do, since they also know they really have no good answer. At least one that doesn't require supernatural MAGIC.

Next? Substituting Gravity for the substance of a Creation out of NOTHING? And throwing insults about as well. For what purpose I can only wonder... WTF? How does that compute? I certainly don't know. Do you, Wonderkid?

Again, a huge mis-comprehension. I did not ever ask HOW the universe was made. Just out of which NOTHING compound? I am getting a bit tired of this amazing lack of understanding of a truly SIMPLE question, but let's persist for a bit longer... <sigh # ∞>

My post #19 I think, did it right:

Originally Posted by rifleman

Not what or who caused it, Wonderkid50 et al, but out of what material elements and energies, and from whence did that very elusive "what" arise.

Specifically, which uniform building blocks were readily available for the natural forces and constants evident during the BB, or for the unnatural and unimaginable forces in the Genesis story (which as I've stated instantly fails out of hand on even a cursory review, since it was supposed to have been an event of total completion but which it so very obviously is not!)

Where did it come from if the scientific version is to be held to those exact same standards, but routinely suffers the usual smirking and shallowly considered out-of-hand dismissals. Plus those tiresome and silly claims that scientific logic has not one iota of evidence nor logic to support the BB theory, whilst the Glorious Omnipotent Creator God concept is simultaneously glad-handed as a proven and obvious success. You can see and understand our logical conundrum, can't you, Christians? You're being obtuse, deflective and obsequious.

Hmmmm.... Different standards, differentially applied?

Only one part of this post relates to my OP: the underlined first sentence. and even that's a bit etherial and ambiguous: Out of god's thoghts, the universe was created. I'm thinking this is still a "How did god do it?" answer rather than a "From what materials" answer. But then VD goes off on a tangent about God creating mathematical information and His single point source (the BB). and that it all came from God's mind.

But what the heck was it made out of? it's physical origins, the literal building blocks (It actually only requires simple helium & hydrogen, and maybe a pinch of lithium as the lesser atoms fused up in nuclear fusion reactions... as I recall... I am not a "nuc" physicist or astronomer after all, and so I know my limitations and don't overstate them!) The scientist's oft-critiqued NOTHING or some Godly NOTHING? <sighhhhhh>

And so, at that point, I've concluded the obvious: 5 pages and only one potentially properly addressed answer, but one which does not really give us any clarity. To say "But, God works in mysterious and magical ways"... is that the ultimate fall-back position you'll take if truly logically cornered?

I'm getting that sense, and if that's indeed so, then there's truly no point in ever debating anything with any Christian EVER AGAIN, since in the end, even when we've perhaps categorically proven some anti-Christian point, they'll just claim that God was still directing that scientist, or that meteorite or that star explosion or whatever. All God's plan, and that's that!

Door/mind slammed shut. And so, Wonderkid, I stated, in conclusion:

Originally Posted by rifleman

There have been no satisfactory answers here from any Christians, despite these 4 pages of opportunity. Except for VansDad, whose lone personal opinion explanation is far from satisfactory. Magic don't cut it here!

I'd suggest that Christians no longer try to use the "Out of Nothing?" challenge to atheists if they are simultaneously unable to provide an equally logical answer for their own version, one that does not require magic of undefined but massive and truly unbelievable proportions. If they refuse to provide a rational and logical answer to a simple question such as I posed in my OP, then it's only polite and reasonable, and also logical, that they not then try to use that same scientific logic against us.

After all, if that were all we had, we could also play the Magic Scientist Card! As in: it all popped into being because of a pre-universe alien culture, one that flits across the time-space continuum and poofs universes into existence by the jillions!

(And PS: there have been infinitely far more sightings of UFOs, and/or of alien abductions, some co-witnessed by tens of thousands of individuals, and some of those who are actual objective scientists and astronomers, than have EVER been seen of God or Jesus. Tear-stained statuettes or the face of Jesus on burnt toast notwithstanding that is, God has NEVER deemed to show us His apparently very shy face!...)

Else, it's not a level playing field, and yet that seems to be how Christians like it. A truly immature and self-serving, but tacitly illogical, approach to any debate, and if this were an adjudicated one, they'd lose by default.

(Cue the ominous judge's deep voice: "Unable to respond to simple questions with equally simple to-the-point answers . Judgement? An EPIC FAIL on the part of Christians. Debate closed.")

OK Mods; take 'er down!

Now then: any comments? Want to try your hand at answering the OP now?

[PanTerra]

Originally Posted by Sir Les

Yep..that is correct...

Woohoo! So Johnny, what do we have for PanTerra? A new car!

[perry335654]

Originally Posted by rifleman

We're often admonished by Christians that "science" has tried but failed to explain how the Universe was created OUT OF NOTHING. (Noting of course that "Evolution" is unrelated to this Creation, btw... Such tiresome conflations only serve to show the huge lack of basic scientific literacy of the writer...)

________________________________________

Answer me this one then please:

How did your god Create His instantly complete and fully finished () Universe OUT OF NOTHING?

Are we talking about different "NOTHING" elements here? Godly versus Reality LEGOâ„¢ particles?

How does the OP know there was nothing as i STATED GOD IS BEFORE TIME, so who knows, nobody but Him because He is God.

[Sir Les]

Originally Posted by rifleman

Hmmm... I didn't ask what the opposite of NOTHING was. Just "What is the biblical NOTHING composed of. Bad answer, unrelated. <sigh>





Hmmm. Again, what was the NOTHING composed of? <sigh #2>



Hmmm: How He did it? Again, comprehension skills seem to be at an all-time low here. <sigh #3>

Now You asked in the original Post How God made the universe out of Nothing...and I answered it with the opposite...hence it is very on topic...You cannot rap your head around that truth.

for every state there is a opposite...up has a down, right has a left, forward has a backward...etc.

So if nothing is on one side of the equation..and on the other side of the equation is something or everything as a opposite...the ALTARED STATE OF MATTER...ANTI MATTER...DARK MATTER....and before God made light...it was Dark....eh? ...and in the Darkness nothing could be seen...So I ask You if one can see Nothing...then surely one should be able to see something or as I like to put it Everything....But that here and now is not the case.?....and so Your answer will be always unrelated, as you cannot relate the two states of being...matter and Antimatter coming together in peace to form everything in a living estate under God....how? why?...those are other questions for other posts.

[Sir Les]

Originally Posted by PanTerra

Woohoo! So Johnny, what do we have for PanTerra? A new car!

How's about a needle and two camels?...nothing more, nothing less !...or is that "Nothing" or "something" or "everything" someone once said will get into heaven easier one day? before the rich man?...wonder why?

[tinynot]

Originally Posted by rifleman

We're often admonished by Christians that "science" has tried but failed to explain how the Universe was created OUT OF NOTHING. (Noting of course that "Evolution" is unrelated to this Creation, btw... Such tiresome conflations only serve to show the huge lack of basic scientific literacy of the writer...)

________________________________________, ME

Answer me this one then please:

How did your god Create His instantly complete and fully finished () Universe OUT OF NOTHING?

Are we talking about different "NOTHING" elements here? Godly versus Reality LEGOâ„¢ particles?

I don't think my post was understood. In my post that reads "regardless of how it happened that organisms are designed by their genetic code" .. I don't need to see radioactivity, explosions or unique form of life that just appears" was meant to relate that I don't need to see any explanation of bang theory or that life (plant and animal) just poofs and appeared because God created plants or whatever in one day. You are taking what I said out of context because atheists get blamed for whatever.
I believe I said We don't know anything before God or Big Bang...so I should have sad it is I , ME
YOURS TRULY don't know what the nothing was.

And, I really think atherist have an opinion on how the universe was created, "we don't know" is hardly an atheist answer