U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 10-17-2008, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
Reputation: 522

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
This world you describe is just not the real world, where folk have inconvenient urges and true love is up against all sorts of pitfalls.

I don't want to say you have no direct experience of this particular matter, but speaking to you as a man, I believe you are seriously underestimating the male libido and its powerful needs. I cannot speak for women, of course.

Firstly, a man doesn't have homosexual 'tendencies' - that is a meaningless phrase unless it is applied to a fully BI-sexual individual, which is a slightly different case. In my fifty-odd experience in this matter, for what it's worth, there are VERY few men who have a an equal preference for both sexes. So in answer to your question, yes, Alice, the gay man IS in the wrong when he ignores his instinct and marries a woman. He is faced with having to repress his true feelings on a daily basis in order to try and make things work, and as we know by now, repression makes people ill in the long term.

Better he be honest with himself (and his intended) and face facts. Such a couple would NEVER have a fulfilling sex life, even if they have a 'perfect mental match' - because Nature gets in the way. Let them be friends - I myself have such a valuable relationship with the wife of a friend - we could even share a bed with no problem. The worse that could happen is that we die of laughing at the foibles of straight men!

The serious point I'm making is that Nature/God didn't create male and female different for no reason, apart from the obvious one of making children. We are attracted as a rule to one sex or the other in order to feel 'whole', if you like. So a gay man cannot find this wholeness - other than with his own sex - that's simply the way he was programmed. It's therefore never a question of, as you insist, letting their sexual urges decide their lives for them, the choice is out of our hands, it really is.

Try reversing the situation for a second: Say God had decreed that heterosexuality wasn't an option for anyone. Then, society would expect you to find and marry a nice female partner, Alice. But what are you going to do with your feelings for men? Pretend they don't exist? Pray for them to go away. You might even be successful in this with luck, as you say sex isn't all that important to you.

But few men are capable of burying their sexual urges in this way, the drive is far too insistent. Nature made us as all as sexual beings whether you like the idea or not. Of course the heart plays a big part: but marriage isn't just about romance, it's about happy physical sexual union as well. If there is a mismatch, as there would inevitably be in an ill-advised marriage. Love could easily flourish, but would never be COMPLETE in the fullest sense of the word.

I guess you won't agree, based on your own experiences as a heterosexual woman who found love in just the way you wanted, but please reflect on the above before advising on a very different situation. A woman marrying a gay man will always be taking a bigger risk with her future happiness than you did, and you simply can't predict the outcome for her.

My two best gay friends will have been together for 40 years later this year, and a more loving and devoted couple you couldn't wish to meet. It would take a cruel person to tell them that this union is not acceptable in the sight of the Lord. I only wish that every union would bring so much love and happiness in this disordered world.
I'm married, if you'll remember. I do understand the male libido. But there are countless men who choose to obey God's laws and not engage in pre-marital or homosexual intercourse, both of which are spoken against in the bible. I never said sex wasnt important to me; that's the second time you've misquoted me. It simply is not enough to base an entire relationship on.

I'm sure it isnt 'easy' for a man to fight his sex drive in order to keep a clean relationship with God. But it's amazing what love for your creator and actively serving him can do for a person. My brother has been divorced for five years and has been without a sexual relationship for as long. And he won't until he finds someone he wants to marry.

 
Old 10-17-2008, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 5,685,872 times
Reputation: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
My brother has been divorced for five years and has been without a sexual relationship for as long. And he won't until he finds someone he wants to marry.
Anyone want to take bets on whether or not he er...gratifies himself?
 
Old 10-17-2008, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
Anyone want to take bets on whether or not he er...gratifies himself?
Well, that certainly seems like a waste...no pun intended.

 
Old 10-17-2008, 05:33 PM
 
Location: UK.
350 posts, read 334,929 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I'm married, if you'll remember. I do understand the male libido. But there are countless men who choose to obey God's laws and not engage in pre-marital or homosexual intercourse, both of which are spoken against in the bible. I never said sex wasnt important to me; that's the second time you've misquoted me. It simply is not enough to base an entire relationship on.

I'm sure it isnt 'easy' for a man to fight his sex drive in order to keep a clean relationship with God. But it's amazing what love for your creator and actively serving him can do for a person. My brother has been divorced for five years and has been without a sexual relationship for as long. And he won't until he finds someone he wants to marry.
So are you saying you are all in favour of gay marriage? Don't tell me, I already know the answer. You want it all your own way - deny gay people the right to get married, and then lay into them for having sex outside marriage. Great thinking...

Or maybe your sense if fair play says that a man who happens to be gay (as from childhood in my and many other cases) shouldn't be allowed to express his sexuality at all?

I don't happen to believe in your God, and for very good reason. So for you to come along and say that I should be made to live according to your rule book is truly offensive.

Remember that Hitler hated gay men, and many thousands were put to death in the nazi camps as a result. Was he doing God's work? I shudder to think what this world would be like if the bigots were put in charge, but fortunately we will never find out, because the world is gradually becoming more enlightened, leaving the most rabid bible-thumpers behind in the dark ages, where they belong.

If your God causes you to be offensive to everybody who doesn't agree with you, (as you are to me and my right to be who I am), then he, too, belongs in the dark ages. But as the gods folk worship always reflect their own secret fears and insecurities, it's clear to me that the rigidity and vengeful nature of the biblical god gives you just the excuse you need to be as judgemental as the worst tyrant.

I have no quarrel with your chosen religion, provided you don't ram it down my throat as you are doing. Luckily, I am comfortable with who I am, faults and all, so you don't in any way impinge on my stability, but there are many young gays out there who are vulnerable to your brand of intolerance. You want to condemn all such people to a life without love, Alice, unless they change the way they are to suit your requirements. I call that arrogance.

Even if such change were possible, which experience shows not to be the case, there should be no compulsion by you or anybody else. RESPECT for our differences is the only way to go, and forgive me, but you give the impression that such respect is conspicuous by its absence in your philosophy.

The world will not go to the dogs just because we love who we choose, but the real threat is intolerance. As I said, the terrible events of the mid Twentieth Century showed us where intolerance leads, and that should be a lesson to us all to live by.

Can't we hear a bit more about the Loving aspect of the Deity, and a bit less about His problems with sex?
 
Old 10-17-2008, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
So are you saying you are all in favour of gay marriage? Don't tell me, I already know the answer. You want it all your own way - deny gay people the right to get married, and then lay into them for having sex outside marriage. Great thinking...

Or maybe your sense if fair play says that a man who happens to be gay (as from childhood in my and many other cases) shouldn't be allowed to express his sexuality at all?
I don't happen to believe in your God, and for very good reason. So for you to come along and say that I should be made to live according to your rule book is truly offensive.

Remember that Hitler hated gay men, and many thousands were put to death in the nazi camps as a result. Was he doing God's work? I shudder to think what this world would be like if the bigots were put in charge, but fortunately we will never find out, because the world is gradually becoming more enlightened, leaving the most rabid bible-thumpers behind in the dark ages, where they belong.

If your God causes you to be offensive to everybody who doesn't agree with you, (as you are to me and my right to be who I am), then he, too, belongs in the dark ages. But as the gods folk worship always reflect their own secret fears and insecurities, it's clear to me that the rigidity and vengeful nature of the biblical god gives you just the excuse you need to be as judgemental as the worst tyrant.

I have no quarrel with your chosen religion, provided you don't ram it down my throat as you are doing. Luckily, I am comfortable with who I am, faults and all, so you don't in any way impinge on my stability, but there are many young gays out there who are vulnerable to your brand of intolerance. You condemn all such people to a life without love, Alice, unless they change the way they are to suit your requirements.

Even if such change were possible, which experience shows not to be the case, there should be no compulsion by you or anybody else. RESPECT for our differences is the only way to go, and forgive me, but you give the impression that such respect is conspicuous by its absence in your philosophy.

The world will not go to the dogs just because we love who we choose, but the real threat is intolerance. As I said, the terrible events of the mid Twentieth Century showed us where intolerance leads, and that should be a lesson to us all to live by.

Can't we hear a bit more about the Loving aspect of the Deity, and a bit less about His problems with sex?
No, I'm not in favor of gay marriage though I would never speak out against it or picket like some extremists. But I can't help but be indignant when you say 'you want it your own way'. It's not my way. I trust Gods Word. I believe it's His way. I don't begrudge you your right to decide for yourself and I would hope you'd respect mine. And I don't believe I 'laid into' anyone. Was there anything I said that led you to believe I was judging or condeming you or any other gay person for their actions? If so, I apologize.

But I never said you should be 'made' to live any way at all and I resent that.I believe I said that there are many men who CHOOSE not to live in a way that THEY feel displeased God. I especially am bothered by the reference to Hitler since thousands of my own brothers and sisters in the faith were put to death or imprisoned in concentration camps for their beliefs. We are also a minority. How could you possibly determine that my stating my beliefs is 'ramming it down your throat'? You have been far more harsh with me than I have with you. Yet I have made no such accusation to you. I understand that you feel strongly about your chosen lifestyle and you truly believe it to be the right choice for you. How can you deny someone else the same right?
 
Old 10-17-2008, 07:00 PM
 
Location: UK.
350 posts, read 334,929 times
Reputation: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
No, I'm not in favor of gay marriage though I would never speak out against it or picket like some extremists. But I can't help but be indignant when you say 'you want it your own way'. It's not my way. I trust Gods Word. I believe it's His way. I don't begrudge you your right to decide for yourself and I would hope you'd respect mine. And I don't believe I 'laid into' anyone. Was there anything I said that led you to believe I was judging or condeming you or any other gay person for their actions? If so, I apologize.

But I never said you should be 'made' to live any way at all and I resent that.I believe I said that there are many men who CHOOSE not to live in a way that THEY feel displeased God. I especially am bothered by the reference to Hitler since thousands of my own brothers and sisters in the faith were put to death or imprisoned in concentration camps for their beliefs. We are also a minority. How could you possibly determine that my stating my beliefs is 'ramming it down your throat'? You have been far more harsh with me than I have with you. Yet I have made no such accusation to you. I understand that you feel strongly about your chosen lifestyle and you truly believe it to be the right choice for you. How can you deny someone else the same right?
If I upset you in any way, of course I apologise. I try to choose my words very carefully so as not to offend as a rule, but sometime my feelings of injustice or outrage get in the way. I am, according to all who know me, the very reverse of 'harsh' in my everyday dealings with people.

But let's try not to get too bogged down in words, it's the spirit of our communication that really matters, even if the actual words used sometimes give the wrong impression. That is definitely the case here, I suspect.

Having said that, I am happy to stand by the main drift of my argument, which is probably, to be fair to you personally, more based on my experience over the years with the Jehova's Witness Faith. Therefore, I don't think I'm being as unfair as you think, because I have been an avid reader of 'The Watchtower' for many years, and have, I hope, a good working knowledge of where you're coming from. I've also 'done battle' with countless callers at my door from the Witnesses, but very amicable battles on the whole.

Nor would I presume to "attack" your faith without being more familiar with the bible than most, as I read it as often as I can, and always have done with great interest, being an avid student of all religions - (for my sins!)

On that basis, I have recently crossed swords on this forum with a gentleman who was born into the Jewish faith, although he is now a passionate Christian. He had a big problem with the issue of homosexuality, and inevitably, my outrage at the Holocaust played a part in our debate, just as here with you. The point being, of course, that it is infinately sad when minority groups, all former victims, give each other needless grief.

I may have upset you, for which I've already apologised, but can't you see that the stance you are taking on the gay issue might be seen by me as an unwarranted negative comment on my existence? I'm sure you are a kind person, so forgive me for having to point out that you ARE causing offence when you point to the error of my ways.

Add to this the fact you persist in using the word 'choose' in this context. It simply isn't the case. I was the youngest of 5 children in a strictly Methodist family in remotest Wales, where the world had stood still for generations, and where THE Chapel was central to everything. My elder sister told me a while back that they had always known I was 'different' right from the start, even though we knew nothing of same-sex attraction at the time. Never heard such a thing mentioned once in all the years i was growing up.

Nevertheless, despite having exactly the same background as my two brothers, who eventually both made happy marriages with the girls of their choice - for me it was always different. Long before I knew anything about sex, I believe my orientation had been fixed, and so it turned out to be. Maybe you can just about imagine the bullying I was subjected to throughout my early years, my confusion and even terror. I was put in hospital for a month following a brutal attack at school, and still I had no idea that there might be others with feelings such as my own. All I knew is that I had no feelings for girls.

And that's not an uncommon story, believe me.

Where am I going with all this? I simply want to convince you that at no point did I choose my sexual orientation. When I did eventually begin to feel an attraction, it was focused on my own sex - no argument. Nor do I say this as an apology - I have faced too much hostility in my life to feel I need to apologise to anyone.

So that, basically, is where I'm coming from, and to date I feel that I have given a pretty good account of myself in this world, give one or two mistakes. In no way do I regard me or my kind as second best. You might, possibly, have had - or will have one day - a child with my sort of orientation; after all, EVERY gay person is the result of a heterosexual act!

Continue to 'trust in God's Word' by all means, if it helps you, but please don't use it as a yardstick to measure me by - I have my conscience to guide me, and I see no problem in that. I don't personally agree with your religious beliefs, but I would defend to the death your right to hold them. All I ask is that you extend the same courtesy to everybody else.

Last edited by brianrees; 10-17-2008 at 07:16 PM..
 
Old 10-18-2008, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,638 posts, read 14,898,640 times
Reputation: 11105
Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Well, I wasnt comparing alcoholism and homosexuality but since you insist that i was, I'll just say that in SOME ways, they are alike. Many people are born with a tendency towards alcoholism and addiction. Many people are born with a tendency towards homosexuality as well. Acting on either tendency is not necessary and can be avoided, if a person feels so inclined. So in that circumstance, they are similar.
Of course it was a comparison.
You were comparing your ancestor's drinking to being attracted to the same sex.
Then you think homosexuality is a choice.
Might want to do a bit of research on that one.
Here's something to try: try to make yourself attracted emotionally and sexually to women.
Does that work for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
Not to love. Love is imparative. Sex does not equal love. And premarital sex is in itself, a sin.
Not everyone believes in your god thing.
What's the real problem you have with that? Are you afraid that you might be wrong?
Sex is great fun.
It's can also be the most intimated gift you can give someone.
A piece of paper means nothing.
Why push your personal beliefs on the rest of the population?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicenavada View Post
I'm married, if you'll remember. I do understand the male libido. But there are countless men who choose to obey God's laws and not engage in pre-marital or homosexual intercourse, both of which are spoken against in the bible. I never said sex wasnt important to me; that's the second time you've misquoted me. It simply is not enough to base an entire relationship on.

I'm sure it isnt 'easy' for a man to fight his sex drive in order to keep a clean relationship with God. But it's amazing what love for your creator and actively serving him can do for a person. My brother has been divorced for five years and has been without a sexual relationship for as long. And he won't until he finds someone he wants to marry.
Your biblical references are neither adding to the conversation nor are they relevant.
Not everyone believes in your god thing.
Nice trump card: well, your god says so, in a book written by men.
Not a good argument at all.

Last edited by chielgirl; 10-18-2008 at 01:33 AM..
 
Old 10-18-2008, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianrees View Post
Continue to 'trust in God's Word' by all means, if it helps you, but please don't use it as a yardstick to measure me by - I have my conscience to guide me, and I see no problem in that. I don't personally agree with your religious beliefs, but I would defend to the death your right to hold them. All I ask is that you extend the same courtesy to everybody else.
Thank you. I thought I made it quite clear that I am not measuring you or any other gay person when I made my comments. But I will use the bible as a yardstick to measure MYSELF by. I don't feel I've judged anyone by stating my beliefs or given the impression that I am not rendering you or others like you the courtesy you feel is due.
 
Old 10-18-2008, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Pleasant Shade Tn
2,214 posts, read 3,743,972 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post


Not everyone believes in your god thing.
What's the real problem you have with that? Are you afraid that you might be wrong?
Sex is great fun.
It's can also be the most intimated gift you can give someone.
A piece of paper means nothing.
Why push your personal beliefs on the rest of the population?



.

chielgirl, you've made it clear that you don't like me or my faith in other threads. I really don't mind at all whether you believe in my 'god thing' or whether you agree w/my choices. But this thread asked a question and I gave MY opinion and stated MY beliefs. If you feel that by doing so I am 'pushing' something on you, I apologize. But it sounds to me as though you have personal conflict or experiences that you are basing your negativity on. Please remember that I personally am not at fault for your set of life experiences and try to by nice.
 
Old 10-18-2008, 10:44 AM
 
12,397 posts, read 15,039,888 times
Reputation: 14619
This is a very old thread, but the OP made more posts in July, so she was still suffering the consequences of being a straight wife married to a gay man..

I truly hope that she has come to the conclusion that quite possibly she is fooling herself by believing that he is no longer gay..
I hope she has quit blaming her looks on her failing marriage and see the real problem is the denial on both sides that her H was, is, and will be a gay person..

I felt that she needed to build her confidence in herself as a good person deserving of the love she is entitled to in a marriagen and be able to set her H free to be who he is..I can only imagine the pain he was also suffering in pretending so hard to be what he wasn't..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top