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Yes, and that goes for his argument as well - that spoken Hebrew ended in the time of Isaiah. The same methdology applies. As to being rude I was not trying to do that I simply thought he was saying that because Jesus spoke Aramaic that what I presented was not correct - since he offered no other indications that he actually agreed. He should have said so?
The use of Aramaic remains somewhat awkward. Irrespective of one's language of discourse, one would expect someone steeped in Jewish scripture to quote that scripture in Hebrew.
10-01-2012, 08:01 PM
2K5Gx2km
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
The use of Aramaic remains somewhat awkward. Irrespective of one's language of discourse, one would expect someone steeped in Jewish scripture to quote that scripture in Hebrew.
So you think Jesus always had to address someone or express a verse from the OT in Hebrew just because it was written in Hebrew - now that is a non sequitur.
So you think Jesus always had to address someone or express a verse from the OT in Hebrew just because it was written in Hebrew - now that is a non sequitur.
"had to"? By moving from talk of expectation to talk of compulsion you distort the discussion.
Actually a number of the verses quoted by Jesus show quite clearly he was using the Septuagint.
Or it shows that he was using a Septuagint vorlage, or - in my opinion more likely - that those authors creating the dialogue were using the Septuagint.
here are the names of Allah
and you can use any name
but his name in all the languages is Allah
Name/Transliteration Translation
ALLÂH Allâh
AR-RAHMÂN The Most Compassionate,The BeneficentThe Beneficent
AR-RAHÃŽM The Merciful
AL-MALIK The King
AL-QUDDÛS The Most Holy
AS-SALÂM The All-Peaceful, The Bestower of peace
AL-MU'MIN The Granter of security
AL-MUHAYMIN The Protector
AL-'AZÃŽZ The Mighty
AL-JABBÂR The Compeller
AL-MUTAKABBIR Supreme in Greatness,The Majestic
AL-KHÂLIQ The Creator
AL-BÂRI' The Maker
AL-MUSAWWIR The Bestower of form,The Shaper
AL-GAFFÂR The Forgiver
AL-QAHHÂR The Subduer
AL-WAHHÂB The Bestower
AR-RAZZÂQ The Provider
AL-FATTÂH The Opener, The Judge
AL-'ALÃŽM The All-Knowing
AL-QÂBID The Withholder
AL-BÂSIT The Expander
AL-KHÂFID The Abaser
AR-RÂFI' The Exalter
AL-MU'IZZ The Bestower of honour
AL-MUDHILL The Humiliator
AS-SAMÃŽ' The All-Hearing
AL-BASÃŽR The All-Seeing
AL-HAKAM The Judge
AL-'ADL The Just, The Equitable
AL-LATÃŽF The Gentle, The Knower of subtleties
AL-KHABÃŽR The All-Aware
AL-HALÃŽM The Forbearing
AL-'AZÃŽM The Incomparably Great
AL-GAFÛR The Forgiving
ASH-SHAKÛR The Appreciative
AL-'ALIYY The Most High
AL-KABÃŽR The Most Great
AL-HAFÃŽZ The Preserver
AL-MUGHÃŽTH The Sustainer
AL-HASÃŽB The Reckoner
AL-JALÃŽL The Majestic, The Revered, The Sublime
AL-KARÃŽM The Generous
AR-RAQÃŽB The Watchful
AL-MUJÃŽB The Responsive
AL-WÂSI' The All-Encompassing, The All-Embracing
AL-HAKÃŽM The Wise
AL-WADÛD The Loving One
AL-MAJÃŽD The Most Glorious
AL-BÂ'ITH The Resurrector
ASH-SHAHÃŽD The Witness
AL-HAQQ The Truth
AL-WAKÃŽL The Ultimate Trustee, The Disposer of Affairs
AL-QAWIYY The Most Strong
AL-MATÃŽN The Firm One, The Authoritative
AL-WALIYY The Protector
AL-HAMÃŽD The All-Praised, The Praiseworthy
AL-MUHSÃŽ The Reckoner
AL-MUBDI' The Originator
AL-MU'ÃŽD The Restorer to life
AL-MUHYÃŽ The Giver of life
AL-MUMÃŽT The Causer of death
AL-HAYY The Ever-Living
AL-QAYYÛM The Self-Existing by Whom all subsist
AL-WÂJID The Self-Sufficient, The All-Perceiving
AL-MÂJID The Glorified
AL-WÂHID The One
AS-SAMAD The Eternally Besought
AL-QÂDIR The Omnipotent, The Able
AL-MUQTADIR The Powerful
AL-MUQADDIM The Expediter
AL- MU'AKHKHIR The Delayer
AL-AWWAL The First
AL-ÂKHIR The Last
AZ-ZÂHIR The Manifest
AL-BÂTIN The Hidden
AL-WÂLÎ The Governor, The Protector
AL-MUTA'ÂLÎ The Most Exalted
AL-BARR The Benign, The Source of All-Goodness
AT-TAWWÂB The Granter and Accepter of repentence
AL- MUNTAQIM The Lord of Retribution, The Avenger
AL-'AFUWW The Pardoner
AR-RA'ÛF The Most Kind, The Clement
MÂLIK-UL-MULK Owner of the Kingdom
DHUL JALÂL WAL IKRÂM Possessor of Majesty and Honour
AL-MUQSIT The Just, The Equitable
AL-JÂME' The Gatherer
AL-GHANIYY The All-Sufficient
AL-MUGHNÃŽ The Enricher
AL-MÂNI' The Preventer of harm
AD-DÂRR The Afflicter
AN-NÂFI' The Benefiter
AN-NÛR The Light
AL-HÂDÎ The Guide
AL-BADÃŽ' The Originator
AL-BÂQÎ The Everlasting
AL-WÂRITH The Ultimate Inheritor
AR-RASHÃŽD The Guide
AS-SABÛR The Patient One
Last edited by truth_teller; 10-02-2012 at 07:34 AM..
10-02-2012, 12:57 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule
"had to"? By moving from talk of expectation to talk of compulsion you distort the discussion.
You don't make any sense!
In light of what I have offered why do you find it unexpected that Jesus spoke Aramaic or that he quoted the OT in Aramaic esp. when Hebrew and Aramaic coexisted, the LXX was already in existence (And possibly an Aramaic version of some type as well), and the fact that the NT records Jesus speaking in Aramaic? Why did you feel it necessary to inteject in the discussion that I was having with Woodrow? Why did you feel it necessary to respond with such absolutness when I said that context and audience matter - your response was - 'No it does not' - without any further explanation. Sounds like more than just a passing comment about expectation. There is nothing unexpected or odd (as Woodrow thought) about Jesus speaking Aramaic or quoting OT verses in Aramaic.
In light of what I have offered why do you find it unexpected that Jesus spoke Aramaic or that he quoted the OT in Aramaic esp. when Hebrew and Aramaic coexisted, the LXX was already in existence (And possibly an Aramaic version of some type as well), and the fact that the NT records Jesus speaking in Aramaic?
Shiloh1, my orthodox son-in-law, raised in Chicago, quotes scripture far more fluently in Hebrew than in English despite not being particularly fluent in conversational Hebrew. A presumably learned and observant sect leader of the 2nd Temple Period would have engaged in a disciplined reading and discussion of Hebrew text - in Hebrew - almost daily throughout his life. It matters little whether or not he used Aramaic in normal conversation; when referencing scripture he would have been far more likely to employ the Hebrew that he had read, chanted, and discussed over and over and over again. Why do you suppose that the DSS scriptural material is overwhelmingly in Hebrew and overwhelmingly proto-Masoretic?
Can I know this with certainty? Of course not. But I believe that I have a better sense of how Jews today talk Torah, and it's hard for me to believe that Jesus as portrayed would be any less reliant on Hebrew sources. This is one of the reasons I believe that much (if not most) of Jesus lore was fabricated decades later by Hellenized Jews (at best) in the diaspora.
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Sounds like more than just a passing comment about expectation. There is nothing unexpected or odd (as Woodrow thought) about Jesus speaking Aramaic or quoting OT verses in Aramaic.
