Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-02-2012, 08:48 AM
 
419 posts, read 433,775 times
Reputation: 80

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawrence-law View Post
how do you know that you are not just creating this being in your imagination, as a way of helping to deal with reality?
Wouldn't it be cool of such a God would just tell us? Maybe show up and explain things? Maybe write a book?

Well...he did do that. We have a collection of 66 books that detail his relationship with his creation. He even became a man and told us. He commissioned some men to go and tell others and to build his church.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-02-2012, 11:24 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 7,199,480 times
Reputation: 1798
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissionary View Post
Wouldn't it be cool of such a God would just tell us? Maybe show up and explain things? Maybe write a book?

Well...he did do that. We have a collection of 66 books that detail his relationship with his creation. He even became a man and told us. He commissioned some men to go and tell others and to build his church.
Problem with that premise is that "he" never wrote anything. All of it was written by men and most of it embellished and borrowed from other pagan cultures. Of course to discover this you actually have to study church origins and look at other pagan myths. Most of them predate the scribblings in the bible by quite a few decades or even centuries. It is not what you think it is.

I really wished it was true, some of it at least, but just like all other faiths, they are the musings of men and not gods.

I am sure your rebuttle will be they were inspired by the HS but sadly that entity does not exist either. Don't you find it just a wee bit strange the stone tablets allegedly written by him are nowhere to be found, the Ark of the Covenant is missing, rod of Aaron, Moses' staff and other artefacts that should have survived are nowhere to be seen. All you have is an alleged empty tomb that supposedly belonged to the Jesus fella (if he existed) and very questionable NT tweaked and altered texts and the fake shroud of Turin. Logic dictates that a god desiring to leave proof of his existence would somehow be able to preserve these but everywhere you look, you find NOTHING. Whatever is offered as artefacts is proven to be fake - yay science.

Yet we do have real and dated artefacts from older religions/cultures, Sumerian clay tablets Odd huh? 4th millennium BC to boot. Other cultures predate this and we have artefacts yet the judeo christian faiths have nada.

Really all that you have is the foundations of a destroyed temple in Jerusalem that lends some historicity to the period yet not recorded (except after the fact in the way of alleged fulfilled prophesy) in the NT texts.

It is also pretty sad seeing that all three major Abrahamic religions allegedly emanated from the same origins hate each other's guts. Three options and none of them seem to have any reasonable evidence that it is NOT man made. All three of them are mere folklore and have been very effectively used as a political tool of mass control.

Surely a god that created the entire universe should be capable of a tad better control/evidence dontcha think? One who really cared for the poor (allegedly) ignores the plight of millions in Africa, one kid dies every SIX SECONDS from starvation yet his daddy managed quail and manna and he personally allegedly fed 4000 and 5000 from tiny morsels - what changed?

Please don't spin the nonsense of original sin as that too is a myth. Mankind has been around a lot longer than what the bible lets on - try 150 thousand+ years for humans Oh yeah we have dated fossils/skulls that prove that BTW but I suppose god just put them skeletons to fool the ebil scientists huh?

All I see when we ask for proof are excuses, no wonder there are apologists making apologies for their god's absence. Now imagine if science had the same concept and had an apologetic wing - switch on iPhone and nothing happens and some dude from Apple say just believe it works... I am sure you will soon tell all your friends not to waste their time with Apple products wouldn't you?

That said, I respect your beliefs even though I think it is nuts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 11:46 AM
 
419 posts, read 433,775 times
Reputation: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Problem with that premise is that "he" never wrote anything.
He inspired it. The apostle Paul referred to scripture as "God-breathed".
Quote:


All of it was written by men and most of it embellished and borrowed from other pagan cultures.
Of course to discover this you actually have to study church origins and look at other pagan myths. Most of them predate the scribblings in the bible by quite a few decades or even centuries. It is not what you think it is.
You know this how, exactly? I believe the events of Genesis took place long before most of the myths of the pagan cultures....the events were then written down many years later. The fact that you may have seen some sanskrit tablets that predate the texts we have is irrelevant.
Quote:
I really wished it was true, some of it at least, but just like all other faiths, they are the musings of men and not gods.
Again...you know this how?
Quote:
I am sure your rebuttle will be they were inspired by the HS but sadly that entity does not exist either. Don't you find it just a wee bit strange the stone tablets allegedly written by him are nowhere to be found, the Ark of the Covenant is missing, rod of Aaron, Moses' staff and other artefacts that should have survived are nowhere to be seen.
I have no problem with the idea that when God removed his presence from the ark that it was stolen by an enemy of Israel. It was, after all, made with a lot of Gold. As for the rod, the staff, and other artifacts? So what? A wooden stick wasn't preserved? Oh no!!!!!

We don't have many artifacts from most of the pagan gods of the time. They have been destroyed.
Quote:

All you have is an alleged empty tomb that supposedly belonged to the Jesus fella (if he existed) and very questionable NT tweaked and altered texts
Can you honestly say they were altered? I can't. We know they were likely written within about 30 years of the time of Christ. They were then copied and different branches of copies were distributed. We can verify their accuracy by comparing the copies of the copies to see what changed.
Quote:

and the fake shroud of Turin.
The Bible doesn't mention the shroud of Turin. It would be cool if it was real.....but I don't base my faith on it.
Quote:

Logic dictates that a god desiring to leave proof of his existence would somehow be able to preserve these but everywhere you look, you find NOTHING. Whatever is offered as artefacts is proven to be fake - yay science.
He left 66 books. You ignore them. Something tells me he could have had a picture taken of him standing with the 12 disciples and you'd find reason not to believe. The Israelites in the time of Moses saw God part the red sea and they didn't believe.
Quote:
Yet we do have real and dated artefacts from older religions/cultures, Sumerian clay tablets Odd huh? 4th millennium BC to boot. Other cultures predate this and we have artefacts yet the judeo christian faiths have nada.
And we have archaelogical evidence of many Biblical sites. We even have documentation of King David. Cool, huh?
Quote:
Really all that you have is the foundations of a destroyed temple in Jerusalem that lends some historicity to the period yet not recorded (except after the fact in the way of alleged fulfilled prophesy) in the NT texts.
And archaeological evidence, a church that was founded and spread very very rapidly, men willingly giving their lives not just for an idea--but because they had actually seen and talked to the resurrected Christ.
Quote:
It is also pretty sad seeing that all three major Abrahamic religions allegedly emanated from the same origins hate each other's guts. Three options and none of them seem to have any reasonable evidence that it is NOT man made. All three of them are mere folklore and have been very effectively used as a political tool of mass control.
We don't hate Jews. The Jewish people gave us the Messiah. I wish they would embrace him. As for muslims? They believe their faith came from Ishmael. The Bible describes him as a "Wild Donkey of a man". That would seem to hold true today, huh? There was enmity between Isaac and Ishmael's descendants then, and there is now.
Quote:

Surely a god that created the entire universe should be capable of a tad better control/evidence dontcha think? One who really cared for the poor (allegedly) ignores the plight of millions in Africa, one kid dies every SIX SECONDS from starvation yet his daddy managed quail and manna and he personally allegedly fed 4000 and 5000 from tiny morsels - what changed?
And Christians are feeding and helping sick kids all over the world. But sin is a horrible thing, isn't it? It affects everyone--even kids in Africa.
Quote:


Please don't spin the nonsense of original sin as that too is a myth.
If you're bound and determined to ignore it, what can I do?
Quote:
Mankind has been around a lot longer than what the bible lets on - try 150 thousand+ years for humans Oh yeah we have dated fossils/skulls that prove that BTW but I suppose god just put them skeletons to fool the ebil scientists huh?
At least according to flawed dating methods, huh?
Quote:
All I see when we ask for proof are excuses, no wonder there are apologists making apologies for their god's absence. Now imagine if science had the same concept and had an apologetic wing - switch on iPhone and nothing happens and some dude from Apple say just believe it works... I am sure you will soon tell all your friends not to waste their time with Apple products wouldn't you?

That said, I respect your beliefs even though I think it is nuts.
You don't sound like you respect them. You sound like a bitter person making a bunch of strawman arguments and ad hominems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 12:03 PM
 
2,964 posts, read 5,439,400 times
Reputation: 3867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Yep ^

The methodologies for showing either one are different in degree. It is far more convincing to show the reality of a physical object or phenomenon than some metaphysical concept like 'God.'
Perhaps I just wondered about your use of the term in a Philosophy forum. This seems an uninterrogated statement rather than an ordered epistemological argument. How do you define epistemology, and what admitted (by speaking of degree) barriers to knowledge by your definition do you concede? How is this position less an ego extension either categorically or by degree?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Whittier
3,004 posts, read 6,257,490 times
Reputation: 3081
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-goat View Post
isn't that what God is - us glorifying ourselves?

to preach that God is great, is just saying I am great!

surely this is one and the same, and so just an ego extension.

agree?
No. The statement is not logically valid...or something... it's been a while.

As it has been stated the idea of God is one of an objective all knowing, all powerful, all good entity, separate/together and the cause of us.

The common knowledge of "God" is one of that a separate entity. God is great and therefore like another poster said is signifying that the person exclaiming that is not. Expressing humility and gratitude.

This is all under the assumption that "God" is an existent force outside of our corporeal world.

If we assume God is man made, which people who believe in God don't believe. Then no one would say God is great; if he is just like us.

If we're assuming that people who believe in God are being deceived into believing God exists, then they would equally be deceived that they would believe in some sort of ego extension.

I'm sure a better logician could formulate a much better rebuttal.

In the end I kinda get what you're saying, but I don't think it makes sense logically.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 01:43 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunjee View Post
Perhaps I just wondered about your use of the term in a Philosophy forum. This seems an uninterrogated statement rather than an ordered epistemological argument. How do you define epistemology, and what admitted (by speaking of degree) barriers to knowledge by your definition do you concede? How is this position less an ego extension either categorically or by degree?
Of course, I was not trying to make an ordered argument for materialism - the thread is about another subject. I was using epistemology in the sense of how one knows that something exists like 'God.' The scientific method, although not without problems, at least seeks to and is capable in many instances to remove the subjective aspect in coming to a reasoned conclusion about objects and phenomenon - unlike claims invoking metaphysical entities or objects like 'God' which seem to exist only in a person's head and in their deductive syllogisms that may or may not be logical. We all know coherence does not necessitate correspondence. As such even these arguments for the existence of God, even though logical, are still epistemologically subject.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,198,160 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuralMissionary View Post
He inspired it. The apostle Paul referred to scripture as "God-breathed".

You know this how, exactly? I believe the events of Genesis took place long before most of the myths of the pagan cultures....the events were then written down many years later. The fact that you may have seen some sanskrit tablets that predate the texts we have is irrelevant.

Again...you know this how?

I have no problem with the idea that when God removed his presence from the ark that it was stolen by an enemy of Israel. It was, after all, made with a lot of Gold. As for the rod, the staff, and other artifacts? So what? A wooden stick wasn't preserved? Oh no!!!!!

We don't have many artifacts from most of the pagan gods of the time. They have been destroyed.

Can you honestly say they were altered? I can't. We know they were likely written within about 30 years of the time of Christ. They were then copied and different branches of copies were distributed. We can verify their accuracy by comparing the copies of the copies to see what changed.

The Bible doesn't mention the shroud of Turin. It would be cool if it was real.....but I don't base my faith on it.

He left 66 books. You ignore them. Something tells me he could have had a picture taken of him standing with the 12 disciples and you'd find reason not to believe. The Israelites in the time of Moses saw God part the red sea and they didn't believe.

And we have archaelogical evidence of many Biblical sites. We even have documentation of King David. Cool, huh?

And archaeological evidence, a church that was founded and spread very very rapidly, men willingly giving their lives not just for an idea--but because they had actually seen and talked to the resurrected Christ.

We don't hate Jews. The Jewish people gave us the Messiah. I wish they would embrace him. As for muslims? They believe their faith came from Ishmael. The Bible describes him as a "Wild Donkey of a man". That would seem to hold true today, huh? There was enmity between Isaac and Ishmael's descendants then, and there is now.

And Christians are feeding and helping sick kids all over the world. But sin is a horrible thing, isn't it? It affects everyone--even kids in Africa.

If you're bound and determined to ignore it, what can I do?

At least according to flawed dating methods, huh?


You don't sound like you respect them. You sound like a bitter person making a bunch of strawman arguments and ad hominems.
^^^^^Head firmly planted in sand^^^^^
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 04:23 PM
 
9,677 posts, read 9,971,995 times
Reputation: 1920
No you got it all wrong !......God is a living thinking talking being , which He is spiritual in the supernatural , and He is a Royal majesty over the earth and the heavens , ...So God is separate from Man because He separated Him self from all darkness of evil , where man fits right in the evil in the earth .... God prefers to be perfect in love .... So followers of Lord Jesus has contact with This living God and Lord Jesus takes care of those who obey His perfect ideas and they interact with God and God interacts with His followers....If people have ego who are religious then it is bias ideas which are common
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-02-2012, 06:31 PM
 
16,294 posts, read 28,470,166 times
Reputation: 8383
Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
No you got it all wrong !......God is a living thinking talking being , which He is spiritual in the supernatural , and He is a Royal majesty over the earth and the heavens , ...So God is separate from Man because He separated Him self from all darkness of evil , where man fits right in the evil in the earth .... God prefers to be perfect in love .... So followers of Lord Jesus has contact with This living God and Lord Jesus takes care of those who obey His perfect ideas and they interact with God and God interacts with His followers....If people have ego who are religious then it is bias ideas which are common
what ever you say there hljc, excuse me while I tiptoe away, you're scary as in a psychotic way......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:03 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top