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I came across this the other night. It is a list of all the accused, sued, settled, and convicted priest abuse cases that have been brought to light in just the United States. There is no "Master List" that shows them all on one single page so you have to click through the names of them alphabetically. There is also a place on the site to view them by state. Massachusetts requires a lot of scrolling.
I want to ask a simple question. Take any large, preferably international corporation that employs a large number of people (i.e., Wal-Mart, IBM, General Electric, etc...). Now imagine that the same number of employees at that company were accused, convicted or sued for child rape or sexual abuse. In every case, said large company paid for the defense of the accused and paid restitution to the victims when required. It's also become known that this company, including the CEO, knew about the abuse by these employees and rather than reporting them to the police and firing them, merely moved them to another location. In some cases, the company even moved them to a sovereign state where the authorities could not reach them.
Would you continue to shop at Wal-Mart knowing that from the top down, the entire organization had harbored the safe-haven of child predators and allowed things like this to continue?
Would you not demand that everyone including the CEO, the board of directors, and every single person who could be held responsible paid the price of justice?
How on Earth could anyone, Catholic or not, look at this enormous list of priests and simply turn a blind eye to it? How could anyone not demand that the organization is rife with child predators and that it needs to be taken down? How could anyone not call for the immediate arrest and imprisonment of those who perpetrated or helped perpetrate these crimes?
I think this is enough to simply say that you're either against the Catholic Church or you find the pedagogy and practice of child sexual abuse acceptable under certain conditions.
Problem is, the catholic church declares itself to be the one, true church. Everything else is "Christian Lite" in a sense. There is a tremendous amount of cultural and personal pride with people that are catholic. Not to mention that there are people that have been catholic for decades and just don't care to change. It's easier to just keep going with what they know.
My own dad was disgusted with them a few years ago and started going to a Lutheran church for awhile. After about a year or so he went back to the catholic church because it's what he was comfortable with. It's just easier to go to a place he's familiar with.
Problem is, the catholic church declares itself to be the one, true church. Everything else is "Christian Lite" in a sense. There is a tremendous amount of cultural and personal pride with people that are catholic. Not to mention that there are people that have been catholic for decades and just don't care to change. It's easier to just keep going with what they know.
My own dad was disgusted with them a few years ago and started going to a Lutheran church for awhile. After about a year or so he went back to the catholic church because it's what he was comfortable with. It's just easier to go to a place he's familiar with.
Fine. Then we should be able to ask a Catholic the following question:
If the Catholic Church is the "one, true church" and the Pope is considered to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth, then when the members of the church "consulted" with God about what to do they were told to cover it up, to move the offenders around, and not to turn them in to the authorities. Why?
Fine. Then we should be able to ask a Catholic the following question:
If the Catholic Church is the "one, true church" and the Pope is considered to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth, then when the members of the church "consulted" with God about what to do they were told to cover it up, to move the offenders around, and not to turn them in to the authorities. Why?
They would tell you that even though the leaders of the church are corrupt, it does not mean the church itself is. There are numerous examples of some really bad popes that did some downright horrible things....but they still respect the office.
They would tell you that even though the leaders of the church are corrupt, it does not mean the church itself is. There are numerous examples of some really bad popes that did some downright horrible things....but they still respect the office.
I don't know why...just the way it is.
Those who been in the military, understand the concept of Respect the Rank, not the man. It is similar with the Catholic Church. They may know a Bishop or even a Pope is a villain, but it is the Authority rank not the person they respect.
Some Army Generals were rotten slobs. but that does not mean the position is rotten, and soldiers should stop following them.
Those who been in the military, understand the concept of Respect the Rank, not the man. It is similar with the Catholic Church. They may know a Bishop or even a Pope is a villain, but it is the Authority rank not the person they respect.
Some Army Generals were rotten slobs. but that does not mean the position is rotten, and soldiers should stop following them.
Take your point. However, if the army is found doing something seriously wrong or the police, or the Church, or any religion, then the matter should be investigated and responsibility taken right up to the top. Unfortunately, we do get a very human tendency for the bosses at the top to avoid responsibility, the ones below say 'we didn't know' and a general attempt at cover up, avoidance of responsibility and the old PR damage limitation 'look at the great job we are doing, be more positive, stop looking for things to criticize, let's draw a line under it and move on'. You can't fool all of the people all of the time and that figleaf is now wearing very thin.
That sticks in the craw bad enough, but when the suspicion is that nothing has changed and it is still going on, then it is not being ignored but condoned. I trust that rendition is now not being done, I do not trust that Child abuse - and adult too - that's also an issue - in the Catholic church has been dealt with and is being dealt with
And even if it is,the fact that it not a merely human organization but supposedly godly one, makes the occurrences even more reprehensible and leads to more doubt that Catholic Church can be anything more than just one more human control and profit organization. People have become disillusioned and the analogy of an army Commander only serves to point up why.
Take your point. However, if the army is found doing something seriously wrong or the police, or the Church, or any religion, then the matter should be investigated and responsibility taken right up to the top. Unfortunately, we do get a very human tendency for the bosses at the top to avoid responsibility, the ones below say 'we didn't know' and a general attempt at cover up, avoidance of responsibility and the old PR damage limitation 'look at the great job we are doing, be more positive, stop looking for things to criticize, let's draw a line under it and move on'. You can't fool all of the people all of the time and that figleaf is now wearing very thin.
That sticks in the craw bad enough, but when the suspicion is that nothing has changed and it is still going on, then it is not being ignored but condoned. I trust that rendition is now not being done, I do not trust that Child abuse - and adult too - that's also an issue - in the Catholic church has been dealt with and is being dealt with
And even if it is,the fact that it not a merely human organization but supposedly godly one, makes the occurrences even more reprehensible and leads to more doubt that Catholic Church can be anything more than just one more human control and profit organization. People have become disillusioned and the analogy of an army Commander only serves to point up why.
Good points.
I think the main issue is the long time practice of hiding what was happening. The fact some priests did wrong is not a big issue, that can happen in any group, the issue is it was and is hidden and covered up.
I think that is what your post points out.-----
"That sticks in the craw bad enough, but when the suspicion is that nothing has changed and it is still going on, then it is not being ignored but condoned. I trust that rendition is now not being done, I do not trust that Child abuse - and adult too - that's also an issue - in the Catholic church has been dealt with and is being dealt with"
I think the main issue is the long time practice of hiding what was happening. The fact some priests did wrong is not a big issue, that can happen in any group, the issue is it was and is hidden and covered up.
I think that is what your post points out.-----
"That sticks in the craw bad enough, but when the suspicion is that nothing has changed and it is still going on, then it is not being ignored but condoned. I trust that rendition is now not being done, I do not trust that Child abuse - and adult too - that's also an issue - in the Catholic church has been dealt with and is being dealt with"
Indeed. The fact that some priests did wrong IS an issue of course, as is indeed the issue of women possibly not feeling at ease in atheist conferences, but the fact is that humans can wrong others across the board and is a red herring. Worse just pointing at priests can invite a 'tuo quoque' response.
The two - pronged point is (a) that, as a religious organization, it should be better than that and (b) it should not have tried to cover it up for so long even if it is not still covering it up -and I fully expect it to come out that it is still going on, and is still being covered up.
I came across this the other night. It is a list of all the accused, sued, settled, and convicted priest abuse cases that have been brought to light in just the United States. There is no "Master List" that shows them all on one single page so you have to click through the names of them alphabetically. There is also a place on the site to view them by state. Massachusetts requires a lot of scrolling.
I want to ask a simple question. Take any large, preferably international corporation that employs a large number of people (i.e., Wal-Mart, IBM, General Electric, etc...). Now imagine that the same number of employees at that company were accused, convicted or sued for child rape or sexual abuse. In every case, said large company paid for the defense of the accused and paid restitution to the victims when required. It's also become known that this company, including the CEO, knew about the abuse by these employees and rather than reporting them to the police and firing them, merely moved them to another location. In some cases, the company even moved them to a sovereign state where the authorities could not reach them.
Would you continue to shop at Wal-Mart knowing that from the top down, the entire organization had harbored the safe-haven of child predators and allowed things like this to continue?
Would you not demand that everyone including the CEO, the board of directors, and every single person who could be held responsible paid the price of justice?
How on Earth could anyone, Catholic or not, look at this enormous list of priests and simply turn a blind eye to it? How could anyone not demand that the organization is rife with child predators and that it needs to be taken down? How could anyone not call for the immediate arrest and imprisonment of those who perpetrated or helped perpetrate these crimes?
I think this is enough to simply say that you're either against the Catholic Church or you find the pedagogy and practice of child sexual abuse acceptable under certain conditions.
Don't worry God will have the final say as He will dole out the final judgement. One may get away with sin here on Earth but God knows all that we do when it comes time for Judgement Day.
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