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Why do some think that religion is so complicated?
Irkle stated a short time ago (along with an insult or two) that: "Many seekers do a great deal of independent research and thinking before they decide the Bible is worth consulting at all. Many Christians do a great deal of independent research and thinking about what the Bible says and issues the Bible doesn't address at all."
In all fairness, I'll start out with Theravada Buddhism. If one has a basic understanding of five things, you've pretty much got Buddhism in your mind: The Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the Five Precepts, Kamma, and cycle or rebirth and possible enlightenment. Of course, one could read every work of the Tipitaka, and read all sorts of books about Buddhism written by monks, study Buddhism at a university (as most monks now do in Thailand)...and you still come back to those 5 basic things. The VAST MAJORITY of the Buddhists in Thailand -- estimated at 66.3 million people -- don't "do a great deal of independent research and thinking" or do "a great deal of independent research and thinking about what the [Tipitaka] says and issues the [Tipitaka] doesn't address at all". Would making that kind of effort make them better Buddhists? Maybe, maybe not.
Now let's take the same ideas and transpose them on to christianity. Make a list of all the people mentioned in the bible. Did they go to libraries to do a "great deal of independent research"? No. They didn't have access to libraries. Did they set up debating societies? I don't think so. They were mostly spending their time herding goats, doing subsistence farming, possibly doing carpentry or other trades, and simple work. Maybe they studied religion on the internet. Oh wait...guess not on that, either. And yet, the religion survived.
Now as to these "many seekers" that Irkle talks about, I question the use of the word "many". My father's side of the family was 'very catholic'. I don't think they did any seeking or studying. None that I ever saw. On my mother's side of the family, varying degrees of methodism (and one grandfather probably an unthinking atheist)...again, no studying, no discussing. Over many years I have had friends and professional associations with hundreds of people who were 'christians', and until recently only knew one who studied and researched christianity. In my current neighborhood we have a social groups of about 22 people who socialize together weekly (interrupted by covid). So we know each other quite well. 1 does bible study and her husband in an atheist. The other 19 are -- as far as I can tell -- christians, and they don't even go to church on a regular basis, let alone study christianity and research it. So, I question the use of the word "many".
But again, my main question here is what is it that's so complicated about christianity or Buddhism that it needs to be researched and studied? And for all those who don't research and study it, does that mean they're not good christians or Buddhists?
Why do some think that religion is so complicated?
But again, my main question here is what is it that's so complicated about christianity or Buddhism that it needs to be researched and studied? And for all those who don't research and study it, does that mean they're not good christians or Buddhists?
Because religious belief is complex, therefore complicated. Unlike atheism which is simple, there is no god, and no god until proven otherwise.
All religions are partly based on faith and partly based on experience and deep introspection. So you read about others, their thoughts, the logic they used, their method, and what conclusions they arrived at and why. What is god is a fundamental question.
What is a good christian or buddhist other than good people?
Because religious belief is complex, therefore complicated. Unlike atheism which is simple, there is no god, and no god until proven otherwise.
All religions are partly based on faith and partly based on experience and deep introspection. So you read about others, their thoughts, the logic they used, their method, and what conclusions they arrived at and why. What is god is a fundamental question.
What is a good christian or buddhist other than good people?
You still haven't shown me where the complexity is, and you ignored virtually all of my post.
And I didn't say anything about not thinking about one's religion. I am talking about extensive research and studying. Show me something in the bible that is truly complex. I don't see it. I don't see it in Buddhism, either.
What's the biggest matter of faith in the bible. Perhaps the Ten Commandments. Do this. Don't do that. Where's the complication? The complication that leads to so many christians breaking them? I don't see a thing confusing about them.
Take the Sermon On The Mount. Is there something confusing there? Seems pretty straight forward to me. One can agree or disagree with some of the points, and one can certainly say they may not work well for this life, but could be good in the next life. But what about them requires so much studying and so much research?
Even the crucifixion and resurrection. It's binary. Either he died and rose again in 3 days and ascended into heaven...or he didn't. Where's all this research that the typical christian needs to do about that? For hundreds and hundreds of years, no research or study was even very possible. No general access to libraries. No world wide web. No debate societies, and yet christianity was carried forward, often by not very intelligent people, sometimes by intelligent people. Besides, I thought it was based on FAITH.
You still haven't shown me where the complexity is, and you ignored virtually all of my post.
And I didn't say anything about not thinking about one's religion. I am talking about extensive research and studying. Show me something in the bible that is truly complex. I don't see it. I don't see it in Buddhism, either.
What's the biggest matter of faith in the bible. Perhaps the Ten Commandments. Do this. Don't do that. Where's the complication? The complication that leads to so many christians breaking them? I don't see a thing confusing about them.
Take the Sermon On The Mount. Is there something confusing there? Seems pretty straight forward to me. One can agree or disagree with some of the points, and one can certainly say they may not work well for this life, but could be good in the next life. But what about them requires so much studying and so much research?
Even the crucifixion and resurrection. It's binary. Either he died and rose again in 3 days and ascended into heaven...or he didn't. Where's all this research that the typical christian needs to do about that? For hundreds and hundreds of years, no research or study was even very possible. No general access to libraries. No world wide web. No debate societies, and yet christianity was carried forward, often by not very intelligent people, sometimes by intelligent people. Besides, I thought it was based on FAITH.
Yep, lot of our ancestors became Christian when the king or princeling or other strongman declared the country to be Christian. You dont want trouble, you play along. In modern times you usually go along with what your family believes or community believes. Go along to get along. Whether you actually believe it or not. Sorry just the way it is. Few go research a religion and intellectually decide thats the one. Its more of a social thing.
Yep, lot of our ancestors became Christian when the king or princeling or other strongman declared the country to be Christian. You dont want trouble, you play along. In modern times you usually go along with what your family believes or community believes. Go along to get along. Whether you actually believe it or not. Sorry just the way it is. Few go research a religion and intellectually decide thats the one. Its more of a social thing.
I agree with you.
And there is no real way to research and study much of what's in the bible. There are few if any secondary sources to confirm the Garden of Eden, or Moses on Mount Sinai, or even the resurrection.
Because religious belief is complex, therefore complicated. Unlike atheism which is simple, there is no god, and no god until proven otherwise.
All religions are partly based on faith and partly based on experience and deep introspection. So you read about others, their thoughts, the logic they used, their method, and what conclusions they arrived at and why. What is god is a fundamental question.
What is a good christian or buddhist other than good people?
Non belief in God/gods. That's atheism. Pretty simple. Religion on the other hand must explain how it's various contradicting tenents, contradictions in logic, and contradictions in observed reality are valid and true.
I don't know why I am doing this because I don't believe you will have any more clarity on anything at the end of this thread. I suspect you ask these questions to only convince yourself further that there is nothing else to understand any more than what you already know. Still, I will respond as an exercise for myself because explaining something to some one is the best way to learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
And I didn't say anything about not thinking about one's religion. I am talking about extensive research and studying. Show me something in the bible that is truly complex. I don't see it. I don't see it in Buddhism, either.
I will remove your annoying whining and only respond to what seems like genuine inquiry. Thinking involves studying deeply, reading books, searching bibliography of books that impress you to find more books to read. Taking notes. Going to the original source of the religious texts and studying them in their original language, not translation although it may be necessary in the beginning. I don't know what this is other than research. The more you explore the more you can quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. That is a sign of acquiring knowledge.
I am doing this with my own religion but there is a lot of scholarship in all religions. For instance I read Emerson who was a preacher to see what moved him and whose writing he read and how it influenced his thoughts on religion, society, slavery, and what he preached. I am currently reading a book about just that - the books Emerson read. Why? Because his thoughts were influenced by writings on Advaita which is currently my passion. So that is how a mind evolves and opens up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
What's the biggest matter of faith in the bible. Perhaps the Ten Commandments. Do this. Don't do that. Where's the complication? The complication that leads to so many christians breaking them? I don't see a thing confusing about them.
Take the Sermon On The Mount. Is there something confusing there? Seems pretty straight forward to me. One can agree or disagree with some of the points, and one can certainly say they may not work well for this life, but could be good in the next life. But what about them requires so much studying and so much research?
Even the crucifixion and resurrection. It's binary. Either he died and rose again in 3 days and ascended into heaven...or he didn't. Where's all this research that the typical christian needs to do about that? For hundreds and hundreds of years, no research or study was even very possible. No general access to libraries. No world wide web. No debate societies, and yet christianity was carried forward, often by not very intelligent people, sometimes by intelligent people. Besides, I thought it was based on FAITH.
As a non-Christian I have read many books on Christianity written by Christians, because I find Jesus an amazing character. There is SO MUCH to know. Nothing I read has made me want to become Christian, because my religion has everything I need and it amazes me how much of Advaita thoughts are present in what Jesus taught. Have you ever read St.Thoms's gospel? The Dead Sea Scrolls?
If you just stay with your own thoughts and conclusions, with so much condescension for Christians there is no room to expand, you make your self a jail. Religion is not literal, empty facts, and history. They are all relevant but that is not all. In fact Religion is poetry. I really do believe that those who don't get poetry cannot get spirituality. They may be religious but not spiritual.
That's the problem with religion, it can always be added to, expanded on, redefined, reworded, reinterpreted, refashioned, refangled, etc. LOL There's too much of the human element involved, and need for people to keep it going, pay for it, etc.
Spirituality on the other hand tends to be simple, pure, and continuous. I respect our Native Indian population for what they had (and still have). Many others move forward with spirituality, living in peace and progress. No fighting, arguing, or bickering.
Why do some think that religion is so complicated?
Irkle stated a short time ago (along with an insult or two) that: "Many seekers do a great deal of ]
Nipped for space...
But again, my main question here is what is it that's so complicated about christianity or Buddhism that it needs to be researched and studied? And for all those who don't research and study it, does that mean they're not good christians or Buddhists?
Yeah, just ignore things that counter your belief ... its simple ...
I don't know why I am doing this because I don't believe you will have any more clarity on anything at the end of this thread. I suspect you ask these questions to only convince yourself further that there is nothing else to understand any more than what you already know. Still, I will respond as an exercise for myself because explaining something to some one is the best way to learn.
I will remove your annoying whining and only respond to what seems like genuine inquiry. Thinking involves studying deeply, reading books, searching bibliography of books that impress you to find more books to read. Taking notes. Going to the original source of the religious texts and studying them in their original language, not translation although it may be necessary in the beginning. I don't know what this is other than research. The more you explore the more you can quickly separate the wheat from the chaff. That is a sign of acquiring knowledge.
I am doing this with my own religion but there is a lot of scholarship in all religions. For instance I read Emerson who was a preacher to see what moved him and whose writing he read and how it influenced his thoughts on religion, society, slavery, and what he preached. I am currently reading a book about just that - the books Emerson read. Why? Because his thoughts were influenced by writings on Advaita which is currently my passion. So that is how a mind evolves and opens up.
As a non-Christian I have read many books on Christianity written by Christians, because I find Jesus an amazing character. There is SO MUCH to know. Nothing I read has made me want to become Christian, because my religion has everything I need and it amazes me how much of Advaita thoughts are present in what Jesus taught. Have you ever read St.Thoms's gospel? The Dead Sea Scrolls?
If you just stay with your own thoughts and conclusions, with so much condescension for Christians there is no room to expand, you make your self a jail. Religion is not literal, empty facts, and history. They are all relevant but that is not all. In fact Religion is poetry. I really do believe that those who don't get poetry cannot get spirituality. They may be religious but not spiritual.
One of my breakthrough moments during my quest was the acquisition of an understanding and appreciation for the power of poetry. It has definitely facilitated the process of wading through the spiritual fossil record.
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