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Old 10-21-2007, 03:28 PM
 
Location: NC
11,653 posts, read 9,124,068 times
Reputation: 1274

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Quote:
I'm not sure what you are saying but have you read Matthew 10:34-39?

Quote:
Matthew 10
34 Don't think that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came to bring trouble, not peace. 35 I came to turn sons against their fathers, daughters against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. 36 Your worst enemies will be in your own family.
37 If you love your father or mother or even your sons and daughters more than me, you are not fit to be my disciples. 38 And unless you are willing to take up your cross and come with me, you are not fit to be my disciples. 39 If you try to save your life, you will lose it. But if you give it up for me, you will surely find it.
What would you do if you had this as a vision or heard it as God's voice?


Personally, I don't believe that God speaks through visions or by talking to people in a voice today (I know that some may disagree with me), but when I read this, this says to me that Jesus was telling His disciples that His message was going to bring about change. His teachings would step on many toes and many would be offended, even members of the disciple's families. And their commitment to Him would cause conflict even within their homes. The disciples had to be willing to follow Him in spite of these reactions.

Today, this means for me that Jesus/God must come first in my life. People, even members of my family may be offended or turn against me for this, but He has to first. I have to be willing to give up living for "me" and now live for Him. That is what real life is, knowing Him and following Him. That's how I understand it. Hope that answers your question. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-21-2007 at 03:29 PM.. Reason: Quote
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:39 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,595,985 times
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Today, this means for me that Jesus/God must come first in my life. People, even members of my family may be offended or turn against me for this, but He has to first. I have to be willing to give up living for "me" and now live for Him. That is what real life is, knowing Him and following Him. That's how I understand it. Hope that answers your question. God bless.
What Jesus is essentially asking is to give up everything.
THE question now is if he is also asking to give up your rationality.
Because if he is you would have to do everything he (the voice or your vision) says, even killing those you love when ordered.

I don't know about you, but I find this scary.
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:44 PM
 
Location: NC
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Hi, I never said anything about hearing a voice or seeing a vision. What I said was:

Quote:
Personally, I don't believe that God speaks through visions or by talking to people in a voice today

Quote:
"As I read the scriptures today, I don't see where Jesus tells any of His followers to kill their firstborn. So I suppose if Jesus Christ came back today (no vision) and instructed this, for whatever reason, this would be a different situation... and no, I am not hearing voices or having visions."
I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying. What matters to me is what God thinks or finds. When God spoke to Abraham and in that day, He did speak to him, what mattered was Abraham's willingness to do what God said. It had nothing to do with giving up his rationality but it had everything to do with obeying God. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 10-21-2007 at 03:51 PM.. Reason: added quote
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Old 10-21-2007, 03:56 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Question Would we know the difference?

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Hi, I never said anything about hearing a voice or seeing a vision.
I knew that but how else will God personally speak to us?

Quote:
It had nothing to do with giving up his rationality but it had everything to do with obeying God.
To me that is 1 and the same.
Blind obedience (obeying God) = giving up your rationality.

The scary thing is that I think that we won't know the difference between the voice of God and a mental illness.
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:12 PM
 
Location: NC
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Shana:
Quote:
Hi, I never said anything about hearing a voice or seeing a vision.
Tricky D.
Quote:
I knew that but how else will God personally speak to us?
Again,

Shana:
Quote:
"As I read the scriptures today, I don't see where Jesus tells any of His followers to kill their firstborn. So I suppose if Jesus Christ came back today (no vision)and instructed this, for whatever reason, this would be a different situation... and no, I am not hearing voices or having visions."
Quote:
It has nothing to do with giving up his rationality but it had everything to do with obeying God.
Tricky D.
Quote:
To me that is 1 and the same.
Blind obedience (obeying God) = giving up your rationality.

Abraham wasn’t acting on blind obedience. He had seen the evidence of God’s power and of God’s working in his life. For example, God promised him a son and it came to pass. Another example, he had seen what had happened to Sodom and Gomorrah when they were destroyed.


Tricky D.
Quote:
The scary thing is that I think that we won't know the difference between the voice of God and a mental illness.

All I can share here today is I am not talking about hearing voices. Some people, though, may think that they are hearing God when in fact, they are mentally ill. God bless.
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:25 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,595,985 times
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Abraham wasn’t acting on blind obedience. He had seen the evidence of God’s power and of God’s working in his life. For example, God promised him a son and it came to pass. Another example, he had seen what had happened to Sodom and Gomorrah when they were destroyed.
Well seeing is obviously believing, but when you hallucinate (=have a vision) that what you see, hear etc. is for all intent and purposes real.
So obeying God (through visions or voices) is to me like giving up your rationality.

It has nothing to do with you Shana, I'm just travelling down a train of thought.
Thx 4 sharing.
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:33 PM
 
Location: NC
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Okay, and thank you. I have enjoyed our conversation. God bless.
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Old 10-21-2007, 04:59 PM
 
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,163 posts, read 7,850,493 times
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Most religions are against violence if properly followed imho, because they were meant to provide us a path for self realization, which means getting to know God, based on the principle that God is love, all religions preach non violence, however the misinterpretation of those teachings could delude some people and made them believe the opposite.

There is just one exception to the rule. if someone came and possed a deadly threat to you, your family or your homeland you are entitled to defend it, but if the agressor dies as a consequence, you didn't kill him for God you just were a karmic instrument, in my opinion.

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Old 10-22-2007, 12:13 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 10,595,985 times
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Originally Posted by Travelling fella
Quote:
There is just one exception to the rule. if someone came and possed a deadly threat to you, your family or your homeland you are entitled to defend it, but if the agressor dies as a consequence, you didn't kill him for God you just were a karmic instrument, in my opinion.
I don't see killing in self-defence as a sin.
When someone comes at me with a weapon I take no chances and use deadly force to defend myself.
I always consider an armed opponent a lethal threat.
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Old 10-22-2007, 12:26 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 5,615,570 times
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"Murder" means killing for an unjustifiable purpose. The Christian Fifth Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is a mistranslation of "Thou Shalt Not Murder" in the Hebrew.

There were many justifiable reasons for taking a life: self-defense, warfare, religious sacrifices, euthenasia, punishment for certain social and religious infractions (blasphemy), etc.

Last edited by ParkTwain; 10-22-2007 at 12:54 AM..
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