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God ordains these positions of power, even though they may be corrupt does not mean the citizens beget evil with evil, this is not what the Lord wants as He wants civil government authority and the citizens to obey authority. Everything is from God and is of God, when corruption occurs in government,God knows and will deal with it in his own way in His own time. These individuals are put in power to lead by example, it is their choice to do right or wrong, as most of us know Hitler was an evil being who took power in his own hand that wielded abusive power,the soldiers under his regime had to follow orders as they themselves would be shot if not followed.
If God is omniscient then surely He knew what would happen once Hitler got into power. Why did God ordain Hitler in the first place if He did not want him to do what he promised he would do?
Anyway, you believe citizens should always obey authority even if it is corrupt and immoral? That doesn't bode too well for your country then since disobedience to authority is what founded the US
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Originally Posted by Ghostofrand
Surely the best atheist argument to date....
God is not tangible -- but neither is love, hate, greed, envy and so on. Yet these thiings definitely exist.
God is ubiquitos and thus present in far more places than any consumer products ever could be.
Hitler embodied the earthly opposite of God. Anyone who "blames" God for Hitler, or any other "bad leader", understands nothing about Christianity.
The Bible disagrees with you. So far, the only excuses I've heard from Christians were that this particular verse in the Bible was a lie or that I can't possibly understand what the verse really says because I'm not a Christian (as if "the authorities that exist have been instituted by Jesus Christ" suddenly means "Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the authorities that have been instituted" when you're a Christian, lol).
If God is omniscient then surely He knew what would happen once Hitler got into power. Why did God ordain Hitler in the first place if He did not want him to do what he promised he would do?
Anyway, you believe citizens should always obey authority even if it is corrupt and immoral? That doesn't bode too well for your country then since disobedience to authority is what founded the US
The Bible disagrees with you. So far, the only excuses I've heard from Christians were that this particular verse in the Bible was a lie or that I can't possibly understand what the verse really says because I'm not a Christian (as if "the authorities that exist have been instituted by Jesus Christ" suddenly means "Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the authorities that have been instituted" when you're a Christian, lol).
You make silly arguments. Nevermind Hitler. Your point is that every person of authority is chosen by God, according to the bible. Thus, any time a figure of any authority misbehaves, its God's doing/fault. Like I said, a ridiculous argument based on, what 10 words plucked from the bible? I know you think you are really smart for making hay out of this, but its just pointless and silly.
You make silly arguments. Nevermind Hitler. Your point is that every person of authority is chosen by God, according to the bible. Thus, any time a figure of any authority misbehaves, its God's doing/fault. Like I said, a ridiculous argument based on, what 10 words plucked from the bible? I know you think you are really smart for making hay out of this, but its just pointless and silly.
The topic of this thread is "Why did God put Hitler in power". So far, most Christians have claimed that God had nothing to do with it. All I did was point out that the Bible states otherwise. This entire discussion just proves once again that most Christians simply don't care what the Bible says if it's not convenient to them.
This is what the Bible says:
Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by the appointment of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior, and those who resist will incur judgment.
The Bible literally says that the governing authorities have been instituted by Jesus/God. Not only that, any resistance against the authorities is considered a personal attack against God. Since God is omniscient, He knows in advance which authorities will misbehave. If He decides to institute governing authorities which He knows are corrupt or immoral, then logically He should be held responsible for it.
Of course, this is not what I personally believe as I'm an atheist. As a real Christian though, you have no choice but to accept this view because that is what the Bible says.
The topic of this thread is "Why did God put Hitler in power". So far, most Christians have claimed that God had nothing to do with it. All I did was point out that the Bible states otherwise. This entire discussion just proves once again that most Christians simply don't care what the Bible says if it's not convenient to them.
This is what the Bible says:
Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by the appointment of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior. 13:2 So the person who resists such authority resists the ordinance of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior, and those who resist will incur judgment.
The Bible literally says that the governing authorities have been instituted by Jesus/God. Not only that, any resistance against the authorities is considered a personal attack against God. Since God is omniscient, He knows in advance which authorities will misbehave. If He decides to institute governing authorities which He knows are corrupt or immoral, then logically He should be held responsible for it.
Of course, this is not what I personally believe as I'm an atheist. As a real Christian though, you have no choice but to accept this view because that is what the Bible says.
You, as an atheist, are telling ME, as a Christian, what I MUST do? Really? Utter nonsense. Besides, I dont respond well to bullying.
God also knows that humans will sin. So therefore, by your "logic", every sin is God's fault/doing -- not the individuals'. Of course, this is absurdidia taken to its illogical maximum.
Authorities killed Jesus Christ. Humans make their OWN decisions. Your "interpretation" that God bears responsibility for everything (bad) because he knows all is just silliness.
I could have sworn when I made my election choice on Nov 6th it was my hand that punched the ballot. God may have been CONSULTED, but I MADE MY CHOICE.
Im no biblical scholar. But I have listened and learned from many who are. They would dismantle your silliness in about 4 seconds.
You, as an atheist, are telling ME, as a Christian, what I MUST do? Really? Utter nonsense. Besides, I dont respond well to bullying.
No, I'm just informing you what the Bible says. Whether you accept the Bible's claims or not is up to you. However, if you're a Christian who believes the Bible is the literal or inspired Word of God and that everything in it is true, then you have no choice but to agree with what the Bible says.
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God also knows that humans will sin. So therefore, by your "logic", every sin is God's fault/doing -- not the individuals'. Of course, this is absurdidia taken to its illogical maximum.
Yes, God is ultimately responsible for human sin. He created humans with the propensity to sin. Doesn't the Bible teach that humans are born with sin, we have no choice but to sin because we are imperfect beings? Unlike us, God does have a choice. He could have made it impossible for us to sin. Not only that, God knows exactly what sins each of us is going to commit before we are even born and He has the ability to prevent us from doing it. He willingly chooses not to intervene. Now we can have a whole discussion about the purpose of sin and free will (although I would argue there is no such thing as "free will") but that is not the point.
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Authorities killed Jesus Christ. Humans make their OWN decisions. Your "interpretation" that God bears responsibility for everything (bad) because he knows all is just silliness.
Authorities killed Jesus Christ because that was God's will. God intended for Jesus to die for our sins, that was the whole point of Him coming to earth, isn't that what the Bible teaches? Or are you saying Jesus' crucifixion wasn't part of God's plan?
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I could have sworn when I made my election choice on Nov 6th it was my hand that punched the ballot. God may have been CONSULTED, but I MADE MY CHOICE.
Again, the Bible literally says that all governing authorities have been instituted by Jesus Christ. It's not my claim - I agree with you that it is entirely illogical and improbable - but it is what it is. You don't believe the Bible and neither do I
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Im no biblical scholar. But I have listened and learned from many who are. They would dismantle your silliness in about 4 seconds.
I doubt that. There are many people on this board who are much better debaters than I am (I'm not a very good writer and English is not my native language) but I've never come across a biblical scholar that I found even remotely convincing. Maybe their semantic tricks can make you believe "all governing authorities have been instituted by Jesus Christ" really means "Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the governing authorities" but anyone without a preconceived bias can see right through them.
Humans put people in power over them (or acquiesce to it), period. For those who can think abstractly and engage in parallel thought it might help to think about the following analogy. (Those who do not understand or respond well to the use of abstract analogy can just ignore it.) Blaming what occurs in this physical realm on the Will of God is like blaming a mother's Will for what occurs to the life in her womb. Our physical reality is merely the spiritual "womb" of God's consciousness and we are all "spiritual embryos" developing to maturity and rebirth as Spirit. Our spiritual development and fate is God's only concern . . . NOT our carnal and worldly fates.
Those whose agenda is merely to point out the hypocrisy of Bible believers who pick and choose verses are just indulging their frustrations. There is no need for such "all or nothing" reasoning, period. The Bible can contain inspirations from God without remotely suggesting that everything in it must be believed or nothing at all.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 11-08-2012 at 11:54 AM..
One has to have the heart of the Lord to understand what scriptures says, a non-believer will be utterly confused or want to berate what is said as I have read on this particular thread they are not grasping the concept
Last edited by perry335654; 11-08-2012 at 11:36 AM..
The Bible disagrees with you. So far, the only excuses I've heard from Christians were that this particular verse in the Bible was a lie or that I can't possibly understand what the verse really says because I'm not a Christian (as if "the authorities that exist have been instituted by Jesus Christ" suddenly means "Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the authorities that have been instituted" when you're a Christian, lol).
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Originally Posted by perry335654
One has to have the heart of the Lord to understand what scriptures says, a non-believer will be utterly confused or want to berate what is said as I have read on this particular thread are not grasping the concept
Exhibit A.
It seems that once you become a believer, god rewires your brain to give you wholly new and inscrutable thought processes. Hooray?
One has to have the heart of the Lord to understand what scriptures says, a non-believer will be utterly confused or want to berate what is said as I have read on this particular thread they are not grasping the concept
Cause our mind and ability to reason is still intact.
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Why did God put Hitler in power?
