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Old 01-30-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Reno, NV
5,987 posts, read 10,451,393 times
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I'll grant that god is real. As real as pink unicorns and flying elephants, anyway. Imagination is powerful. Belief is also powerful. However, that does not necessarily make their constructs true.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,583,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaoistDude View Post
I'll grant that god is real. As real as pink unicorns and flying elephants, anyway. Imagination is powerful. Belief is also powerful. However, that does not necessarily make their constructs true.

I think there is a slight possibility that there will be pink Unicorns and Flying Elephants in Gods Kingdom; I know he can create them if he wishes; just look at all the different animals he has already created; nothing we imagine could be impossible for him to create.

I think its extremely weak imagination to think that all the animal life that exist, all the plant life, all the micro life, and all of human life somehow created itself; THAT is the real myth; your example of pink unicorns is an Atheist ploy that likes to use myths as a defense against the reality of God.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Lake Stevens, WA
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Reality is individual. One sees his own reality and of others he wonders often if they can see his. Churches and relegions formed throughout the limited known history of man on earth do not necessarily represent a single god or the highest power known. The purpose of our existence seems to be served by failures of men as much as any known power. Nevertheless, power to live does exist and it stands to reason that it has a source. One might say power to exist beyond time and space has a source as well. The power to live beyond worldly appearance in a more heavenly state is usually seen as a petition to God (as we are unaware of how to do this natural - or so it would seem). To bring power down into this world is usually seen as magical (satanic or white magic). Obviously some say that all can be explained without the idea of God. The power to exist does come to us somehow however. To believe we serve God's will is where I become amused.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,583,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrantVirgilHolland View Post
Reality is individual. One sees his own reality and of others he wonders often if they can see his. Churches and relegions formed throughout the limited known history of man on earth do not necessarily represent a single god or the highest power known. The purpose of our existence seems to be served by failures of men as much as any known power. Nevertheless, power to live does exist and it stands to reason that it has a source. One might say power to exist beyond time and space has a source as well. The power to live beyond worldly appearance in a more heavenly state is usually seen as a petition to God (as we are unaware of how to do this natural - or so it would seem). To bring power down into this world is usually seen as magical (satanic or white magic). Obviously some say that all can be explained without the idea of God. The power to exist does come to us somehow however. To believe we serve God's will is where I become amused.

I don't think humanity serves Gods will , that's just a fact; but I think that's how God wanted it to play out in human history. This is not the age of God revealing himself beyond how he did it through Jesus some 2,000 years ago. I think there is only one real God, all the others are human and satanic creations. I am not quite sure why the real God wanted this confusion and uncertainty over him; I have my queses; I could speculate on that all day long, but we really just don't know. The power that started the universe and humanity and all other life forms, I think does exist outside of our conscious reality. And it is more powerful than anything that we know; and it certainly does seem magical; magical no matter how one defines how it all got started.

In my view the book called the bible gives the best explination that I can accept, after reading all other available books and views on the topic. Including all scientific theory. I am amused at the theory's that explain existence without the prior existence of a greater power; I just can't see that; I can't see any of this being possible without " A God!" I don't see it.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Reno, NV
5,987 posts, read 10,451,393 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I think there is a slight possibility that there will be pink Unicorns and Flying Elephants in Gods Kingdom; I know he can create them if he wishes; just look at all the different animals he has already created; nothing we imagine could be impossible for him to create.

I think its extremely weak imagination to think that all the animal life that exist, all the plant life, all the micro life, and all of human life somehow created itself; THAT is the real myth; your example of pink unicorns is an Atheist ploy that likes to use myths as a defense against the reality of God.
Yet you're essentially saying that God created himself, or always existed, perhaps. The eternal universe/multiverse is a more sensible and believable answer to the conundrum, and possible to explain even with the current knowledge of physics and cosmology.

It's easier and natural to explain life's complexity by evolution, than to invoke a ridiculously complex designer. It doesn't create itself - it evolves based on simple and provable principles first explained by Darwin.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Reno, NV
5,987 posts, read 10,451,393 times
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Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I kind of like Alfred Russel Wallace's view toward the end of his life; he was the co-founder of the theory of evolution; he said he could no longer accept that life came about on its own, that there had to be an outside source to it. And I think all of humanity is destined to come to this conclusion.
You're welcome to think that, as you seem set in your ideas. Wallace was wrong - plain and simple - and any reputable biologist would agree.

I - on the other hand - think humanity will eventually outgrow its primitive need for religion and God, and will see that they really do not provide real answers. I'm sure you think I'm set in my ideas, too, but if anyone can actually prove my views wrong using legitimate scientific methods, I'll gladly reexamine them.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,583,282 times
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Originally Posted by TaoistDude View Post
You're welcome to think that, as you seem set in your ideas. Wallace was wrong - plain and simple - and any reputable biologist would agree.

I - on the other hand - think humanity will eventually outgrow its primitive need for religion and God, and will see that they really do not provide real answers. I'm sure you think I'm set in my ideas, too, but if anyone can actually prove my views wrong using legitimate scientific methods, I'll gladly reexamine them.

I think humanity needs to outgrow primitive man made religions; and I disagree, many biologist agree with Wallace. And I personally hold no interest in proving God to anyone.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,514 posts, read 37,064,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I kind of like Alfred Russel Wallace's view toward the end of his life; he was the co-founder of the theory of evolution; he said he could no longer accept that life came about on its own, that there had to be an outside source to it. And I think all of humanity is destined to come to this conclusion.
I think I have fairly heard and fairly weighed the evidence on both sides, and I remain an utter disbeliever in almost all that you consider the most sacred truths.....Alfred Russel Wallace

I will pass over as utterly contemptible the oft-repeated accusation that skeptics shut out evidence because they will not be governed by the morality of Christianity........Alfred Russel Wallace

Surprise! I could find nothing at all like what you attribute to Wallace.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
33,514 posts, read 37,064,767 times
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Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I could care less what you believe, he wrote it himself in his book " Mans place in the Universe." You can read it at wikipedia.org/wiki/alfred-russel-wallace, or in " Beyond the stones and bones" by Michael A. Cremo. But your too closed minded to even search out these few of the many I searched years ago.
Actually he did not write it....You can find that quote at the very end of his book "Man's Place in the universe" It was penned by R A Proctor.

Quote:
'Inconceivable, doubtless, are these infinities of time and space, of matter, of motion, and of life. Inconceivable that the whole universe can be for all time the scene of the operation of infinite power, omnipresent, all-knowing. Utterly incomprehensible how Infinite Purpose can be associated with endless material evolution. But it is no new thought, no modern discovery, that we are thus utterly powerless to conceive or comprehend the idea of an Infinite Being, Almighty, All-knowing, Omnipresent, and Eternal, of whose inscrutable purpose the material universe is the unexplained manifestation. Science is in presence of the old, old mystery; the old, old questions are asked of her—"Canst thou by searching find out God? Canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" And science answers these questions as they were answered of old—"As touching the Almighty we cannot find Him out."' R.A. Proctor:
This is Wallace's conclusion..

Quote:
This completes my work as a connected argument, founded wholly on the facts and principles accumulated by modern science; and it leads, if my facts are substantially correct and my reasoning sound, to one great and definite conclusion—that man, the culmination of conscious organic life, has been developed here only in the whole vast material universe we see around us. I claim that this is the logical outcome of the evidence, if we consider and weigh this evidence without any prepossessions whatever. I maintain that it is a question as to which we have no right to form a priori opinions not founded upon evidence. And evidence opposed to this conclusion, or even as to its improbability, we have absolutely none whatever.
Here is the entire book, if you care to read it... The Project Gutenberg eBook of Man's Place In The Universe, by Alfred R. Wallace.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Warren, Michigan
5,298 posts, read 4,583,282 times
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Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Actually he did not write it....You can find that quote at the very end of his book "Man's Place in the universe" It was penned by R A Proctor.

This is Wallace's conclusion..

Here is the entire book, if you care to read it... The Project Gutenberg eBook of Man's Place In The Universe, by Alfred R. Wallace.

This just goes to show you that help is useless if the person does not reach out to it. That's why I just put things out there; whoever is ready or meant to will grab at it.
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