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√ Well I disagree; God existed first, then created humans,
√ THEN religion, churchs, bibles and and religious wars came along. God was the cause of this; in my view, you remove the cause and the reaction wouldnot exist.
So in this thread, I am examining what if God were not even real, and I am exposing and removing all the reactions to God; or simply put- the things God caused would not exist if he did not.
Gawd! Mickiel! I could only stomach Page One, and then had to stop! BARF! And here I thought maybe your meds were working better for you now! Geeezzzz. You really are the undisputed Champ of Circularity! At least you have THAT to ponitificate about and celebrate, huh?
In essence, you say that if God were not real or here, then we'd not have all those other things. But since we do have all those things, those elements alone are stunning & absolute proof that God IS here!
Am I close? My Gawd: we can prove anything by that stumbling and hugely fanciful process, including that God obviously does not exist. The fact we've actually built all these proven false edifices and wacky wooden icons, plus highly creative but totally contradictory stories, and then conjoined all that with a couple thousand different versions of the mono-theistic, and/or multi-theistic God myths.... is proof all on it's own that none of them can possibly be real. Obviously!
Therefore, by your own rules of logical engagement, they are all fakes and imaginary mind games. The requirement that all of them require gathering en-mass, to co-celebrate, co-sacrifice, co-tithe and co-deny any other "obviously incorrect versions!", is also proof of the church administration's absolute requirement that the peons be kept on some specific straight and narrow, that it's obviously all a big ol'fairy tale, in so many many versions!
Well, let's take a brief look though as I said, I could only stomach Page 1:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
√ If God were not real, someone explain to me WHY discussion boards would even HAVE a religion and Spirituality section?
√ If God were not real, then religion and Spirituality would not be real. (Wrong. the only stuff missing would be specific to the Abrahamic God. Needy hominids would then have invented many other iconic religions. See": Native N. American, S. American, African and early Asian tribal cultures. They all had their independant spiritual entities, all now known to be nothing but spiritual totems.
√ Now if we remove spirituality from the human experience, or remove God, what would that world look like?
√ if God were not real, just how would that have effected human history?
And I want to show some serious exclusions and removals from human history that we must then consider.
No Crusades to murder off an entire culture? No church-mandated burnings Joan of ARc for instance), no power struggles within the Vatican or other church bodies, no snotty-nosed Holier-Than-Thou righteously coped attitudes foisted off on innocent members of any society, no invasion of Iraq ("God told me to do it!" courtesy of The Dub-Yah), no Islamic desire to eradicate all the infidels, (*that includes you, Mickiel!), no Nazis/Americans/Italians/Turks or whomever then claimed God was on THEIR side!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel
On a side note, there is no evidence that " You" can see and accept;
√ you just named 3 proofs of Gods existence out of your very own mouth; religion, religious wars and churchs are all proofs of God; none of these would never have existed if God did not exist.
Your presicous Atheism... (rflmn: prescious? You perhaps mean "precious"? As in held close to our hearts? Not hardly. Atheism's just a logcal conclusion, Mickiel, and you know that. Stop trying to make it more than it is!)
would not even exist if God did not; your Atheism is evidence of God.
(rflmn: Sheesh! How totally illogical can one person be? If a five-wheeled car had never been invented, I agree, we wouldn't then have a need for, nor go out and design one. So what?)
God gave you your eyes to not see him; he gave you your stance against him; he gave you your disposition against him and religion; he gave you all this!
(rflmn: no, as a one-time devout Christian who was blessed, apparently, with a logical and curious but also un-terrified {of death, naturally..} mindset, I simply began by asking some simple questions to validate my once-strong faith, since I saw some very obvious cracks in the church's fabricated and iconic armor. When those stuck out like a sore thumb, I started asking even more detailed questions, and the rest is history.)
Ask yourself; if God did not exist, would then your disposition against him even NEED to exist?
Nope. But an inquisitive mind, as demo'd in science's efforts every day to uncover the secrets of nature, do not focus solely on Gods and Christianity, but rather on literally everything that perks the natural interests of logical men. Thus to say that since we primates are inquisitive, this proves God exists!... is another truly oddball but convenient interpretation I must say.
Would you say, Mickiel, that because I want to take care of my teeth, and thus have bought a Phillips electronic vibratory toothbrush, that this prove God's existence? You know, soz I can PTL as I brusha-brush my dents?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekTDI
This argument is so weak it doesnt even deserve a response, but what the heck:
What if the tooth fairy were not real. I wouldn't have had those quarters under my pillow when I was a kid.
What if the Flying Spaghetti Monster wasn't real. We wouldn't know of his noodly appendages.
What if unicorns weren't real? What blood would voldemort have had to drink to stay alive in Harry Potter?
What if the goddess Venus didn't exist? We wouldn't have a planet named after her.
Now youve got it. Now go to your Philosophy/Debating Class senior debate, Derek, and try this logical paradigm out in a real debate. I'll be waiting outside with the psychological ambulance if you need a brain transfusion after that debacle!
Gawd! This thread and M's posted responses in fact prove that a truly devout and defensive/selectively creative Christian mind can make a total mockery of common sense and step-wise.
I am truly so very VERY happy that I managed to deflect off this pathological and mindless manifestation. Too bad so durned many are thusly debilitated though, huh?
Problem with your comparison though, is that Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, etc...never claimed to be a religious figure, or that they received messages from God. They certainly didn't do it in God's name.
Wait now... somewhere on these fora, didn't you blame atheism for all despotic regimes and their resultant evil outcomes (as expressed solely by these few sociopathic psychopaths and their ego-maniacal and pathological behaviors, all conducted in order to gain absolute power?) were specifically a result of their atheism? How do you know they didn't either receive messages from God, or that they at least thought they were... George "W" thought so, as did Hitler, and who knows what evil lurked in the minds of Mao, Pol Pot, and all the rest?
Let's make sure we remember: these types were and are very few and very far between in relation to the world's Christian hierarchy and membership. There's far FAR more religious despots that have survived and forced their spiritual idiocies on their people. Ahmadinejad? All those nutcase maniac Imams? The Pope? King Charles et all... from The Godly Crusades? The Wesboro Baptists? Pat Robertson? Benny? Earnest Angley? Jimmy The Tears Man? Jim & Tammy Faye? Harold ("Oops; I missed it again!") Camping? Kenneth Copeland? Kent "Felon" Hovind or Banana Ray Comfort's mutual blitherings?
Each and all of them no better, frankly, that Hitler or Mao. They just wish they could have such a following, and then we can only wonder (not!) what they'd do with such unholy power tripping!
Yoyr error is in The Handy Convenience of claiming that while God is never responsible for evil, atheism is morally reprehensible, sub-human and thus responsible all on it's own for the evil in men's hearts.
So... A non-belief as the cause for what again?
Living a life independent of the spurious thoughts of the mass congregation that huddles all around you, co-praying with tears in their frightened eyes, while mutually assuring each other in the subsequent coffee klatch room at the church that their pathways truly represent a life well spent, is false on it's face.
I prefer to live free of self-righteousness and jealousy, or of having to hold such frivolous and non-negotiable negativities against my Mormon/Wiccan/Atheist/Buddhist/Shinto/Jewish {and so many more...} friends and fellow humans.
I am thus free to openly review, to posit and test, whatever I choose to. True intellectual free will, if you wish, to look upon any and all of "creation", sans ideological barriers that you are strictly bound to not step over!
Rather, I'd say Christianity's existence is absolute proof of a huge psychological need. If God were not real (which he isn't btw...) then all of those orderly manifestations would decay and fall, sort of like the majority of ancient religions have done when rigorously inspected or denigrated by the more powerful religion of the day......
(I'll remind all of the now measured annual & significant drop in the adherence to Christianity, versus the growth of Islam which follows on the growth of truly illiterate and un-educated populations, exactly what the senior Islamic fundamentalists desire. A free army, without any later teenaged prompting!)
So PS: God is neither proven by Mickiel's false & highly circuitous arguments, nor is the logical and rational alternative conclusion (i.e.: atheism ) responsible for the world's evils. No brushing with your own guilt-paint please!
What if God were not real, well France certainly would be different than it is now; 63% of its people believe in God, 26% believe it might be a God , 10% believe in an Islamic God, and 31% are Atheist who need the imaginary existence of God in order for their belief to even exist. For Atheism to even be valid, an imaginary God must exist in the minds of others, if that imaginary God didnot exist, then Atheism would be imaginary.
Now, if there were no God, then " Creation is out of the picture totally and natural evolution is how and why we are here." The great debate between natural selection and creationism would have never existed, and there would be no " Theory in evolution", it would simply be our natural agreement on the origin of the universe. Just think how " Bland and unchallaging that would be." Not only would the energectic debate and its historical benefits have never existed, but the pure backbone of searching for the universal answers would have been stripped from our body of research; because science and creationism NEED that oppisition to fuel a much needed debate; if we remove the unatural from the natural, we are removing the skelonton from the body.
Ah to have some clear insight.... but do keep looking, Mickiel!
There'd be No Debate about The Magic Supernatural God for sure, but there'd be lots of now-unencumbered debates on the uncountable myriad of other far more interesting topics of the day!
Oh to be liberated from the illiterate and illogical prattle of the spiritually blindered. If only they could catch but a brief glimpse of their so sadly limited perspectives, and how that leads, unfortunately, to a sullied lifetime of limits and fear!
If God were not real, Atheism simply wouldnot exist; Atheism does exist; Its academic!
Just the fact that this seems rational to you defies logic itself. Did it ever occur to you that atheism exists because of the idea of god, not because god exists? If I told you I kept a pet dragon under my bed, and you said, "I'm sorry, I don't believe you," does the fact that you don't believe me mean that there really is a dragon under my bed? Do you not realize how asinine that is?
Yes as a christian I don't have a warm and fuzzy for religion myself as it is submerged in traditionally inherited dogma,
ritual and is so structured it makes you want to scream. To answer your question if there was no God my candid answer
would be "your done" You die and rot or if cremated over cooked and "That's All Folks!" With faith in the word aka bible
we not only have hope but an assurance there is much more not withstanding eternal bliss in a heavenly body free of
pain and stress we here on earth are nearly overwhelmed with at times. Jesus rose from the dead witnessed by many
and at his assending into the clouds after hobnobbing in town for 40 days it was witnessed by 500 beliving Jesus freaks
and the apostles. What an event!!! So we are already studying how we might fit in during the Millennium as we spend
1000 years with Christ after His 2nd coming (how heavy is that??!!) God Bless and by the way a great question.
We have not unveiled all the wonders of the universe or of human consciousness. It is possible that we exist on after the body dies, just as an act of nature. It does not necessitate a god. A person can be a Buddhist and not believe in any god.
So if god did not exist there could be spirituality and their could be churches of a sort.
Its not a basic foundation of my belief, but I think the staggering number of humans who have lived in the past and believed in God; who live now and believe in God; and thus we can correctly assume many who are not yet alive and will exist in the future will believe in God; These people facts cannot be excluded from the incredible impact that belief in God really is! Its stunning! The math of it is awesome. Thus, if God werenot real, then most humans are simply like blind mice in their belief and have been sentimental suckers to the most incredible lie ever believed.
The majority is not always correct. In fact, the majority is quite often wrong.
The Universe will be just like it is right now going totally indifferent from us.
Being still alive today because we haven't killed ourselves or a meteor hasn't hit us yet.
Our internal organs and vital functions being dependent of how the Universe works, just as an evolved organism would be, just as a Car has to be complex in the inside because we have no other option to make it work.
Just as we ended up needing oxygen 24/7, need to eat 3 times a day, need to sleep a 1/3 of our lives, having a brain completely developed at 25yrs old with the rational thinking at the last but being able to be parents at 9yrs old.
A mind evolved unable to detect truth or false with 100% accuracy nor knowing everything, emotional and attracted to dramas, stories, heroes, friendship, music, creativity, lust, envy, etc.
People being able to conceive and imagine things, then being convinced of something being true with no evidence and reacting upon EXACTLY as if were true, like if one is being told his son is kidnapped, his life will be destroyed by himself convinced about it(can't sleep, can't work, can't eat, etc. etc.), yet no kidnapper goes to his work nor awakes him on his sleep, the kidnapping doesn't have to be true, a cruel joke is enough to change his state of mind and act accordingly.
Churches and religions will exist just as Music, Movies, Violence, etc. because of human mind nature.
Different organisms with different levels of intelligence.
Progressive complexity and variety of organisms through time of the world.
I suppose the features that gives us the most advantage of survival like Eyes and Brain are the most complex because from the moment our ancestors started to develop the simpler versions of them(light reception, senses, sounds, etc.), they had the chance to survive and transcend drastically, hence having a long long trail of millions of years that gave these features the chance to evolve and being part of all the survival organisms
No Amputees, decapitated, smashed, etc. being cured by magic.
If God were real...
There would be chaos, just by answering a prayer defying the laws of Universe and order.
A Man, good Christian with a crappy product praying for his business, prayers answered and the money which is the product of our work will be LOST on something otherwise we wouldn't buy. Displacing value on our economical and production system.
There wouldn't be Killers, Pedophiles, Gays etc. as they will have an automatic hearth attack or a lightning or a selective Hurricane, Tsunami, etc. before they kill, rape or like the same gender.
etc.
is late here
Last edited by giorgiomax; 11-13-2012 at 11:06 PM..
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