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One cannot have and hold true to any man made religion that allows each parishioner to choose for themselves what they want to believe and or not believe and claim that each and every one and every different view or belief is 100% correct. Logic tells us it can't be this way.
You either believe it all, every word they teach you, or you have to stand up and question the religion as a whole. There are no other realistic intelligent options. With religion, one lie leads to another just like the priests that raped young boys. Popes/bishops covered up their sins and hid them from justice. Now do you want that church to be your church? I don't. But if you do, I question your morals.
Whoa! Where did this come from???? You must not have read my previous post to you.
I don't subscribe to any organized religion and I haven't for more than 40 years. It is not a matter of my telling you what I learned in church. It is a matter of my telling you what I read for myself in the Bible. What I can see, you read many authors, but you have not read the Bible. So many people do that. They either preach or disavow religion. Many read all kinds of books by scholars. Yet, most people just don't bother to read the Bible. If you disavow the Bible, then you do not have the only authority that we have. I realize there were translation mistakes, oversights, and omissions. I'm way too familiar with the Catholic Church and the history of the English translation, as well as the history of the off-shoots and other protestant religions. Currently, I am reading he Torah. Many of the same problems can be found there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHaley
If Jesus was born from a Virgin birth, he would not have a blood lineage to King David which is required for the messiah. So he could not be the messiah according to historical text the christians use to tell us who the messiah is.
If he has blood lineage to King David then someone had to plant their seed in Marys womb to impregnate her, end of story.
When I was 14, I traced the genealogy of Jesus from Mary back to Adam and Eve through David and Abraham. Little did I know at the time that there were 2 genealogies in the NT. One is in Matthew and the other is in Luke. They are different because one follows Mary and one follows Joseph. However, from Abraham through David, they are the same. Solomon, for example, had 600 wives and 400 concubines. Most men had numerous wives. There were plenty of people within a line to marry. So, Mary was of the house of David and of Abraham.
About, a blood line from David being needed to be anointed as king, the Bible tells us that when Solomon fell from grace with God, he was told his off-spring would never again rule as successful kings. There would not be another king. Therefore, Jesus did not have to be anointed because he would not be king. Jesus was anointed by God and it doesn't get any better than that.
As far as someone planting his seed in Mary's womb, that would be God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHaley
I don't see why anyone has an issue with sex and Mary and Joseph and Jesus being 'really a human'.
Mary and Joseph did marry and did have sex, which resulted in children. I don't think anyone has a problem with that. Your confusion about the role of Jesus has enabled you to just dismiss Him. It is easier for you to think of Him as "really a human" regardless of what the Bible says. You are so quick to judge and preach, yet you have the answers in the Bible, but you don't read it and you don't believe what it says. When you walked away from organized religion, you walked away from the Bible, too. They are not the same. Yes, there are many problems with the Bible, but it is all we have of God and of His teachings and experiences with mankind. Good, bad, or indifferent, the Bible is the only information we have about God. It is our responsibility to comb through it and try to discern what God's message to us is. If you are substituting scholars and other authors for the information in the Bible, you are still in an organized religion mind-set. The Catholic Church said years ago, "give me a child until he is 10 and he will be Catholic as long as he lives". Organized religion hasn't survived this long without being some of the best mind-control folks around. Sometimes, just walking away doesn't break the chains that bind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHaley
Mary Magdalene is noted in the christian NT as washing Jesus' feet, drying them with her hair and applying oil to them. This is a known tradition held in reserve for wives of Jews and no one else.
So one could conclude that Jesus may have had a wife, Mary Magdalene.
If you will remember, we know of Jesus from birth to age 12.
Then for the next 18 years we know nothing of him, and nothing is written down ANYWHERE.
Then at age 30 he surfaces again and for 3 years has his ministry and then is murdered.
What happened in those 18 years? No one knows. Not I, Not you, Not the Pope, Not any christian church or religion ANYWHERE.
He very well could have learned his fathers carpentry trade, found a wife, gotten married and lived for a while in little known existence. He could have even fathered some children with Mary.
No one knows. And I do not claim to either.
Since there is no evidence, I don't have an opinion. Yes, I saw the Da Vinci Code. I think it is very possible that he married and had children. It was the thing a young man would do. If He did, I don't have a problem with that and if He didn't, I don't have a problem with that either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHaley
Open your mind to the possibilities of life. They are endless as Gods love is.
Doc
This is another strange statement. I don't know what fairy dust your smoking tonight, but its kinda got you out in left field. Hey, whatever floats your boat.
No, Mary was from the house or tribe of Levi.
Joseph was from the house or tribe of David and inner tribe marriages were not only rare, they were frowned upon. Kinda like incest with current day civilization.
Joseph was required to impregnate Mary to make Jesus part of the blood line of David.
Ask a theologian or 3?
Doc
Ask a theologian or 3????? Are you kidding????
You are still living in the mind-set of letting someone else tell you what is what. Read your Bible. It states plainly that Mary and Joseph were both of the line of David from Abraham.
For we humans and for that matter this universe to simply have come into existence on their own is as likely as a tornado passing through a automobile wrecking yard and when it leaves that wrecking yard there is a brand new, ready to fly, fully fueled 747 aircraft.
You do understand that this argument has been thoroughly debunked, right?
In any event, all you're doing here is running back to the same 200,000 year-old superstitious and magical explanations our ancient ancestors once used. It's as if our knowledge about the universe hasn't advanced one single iota since a human being first looked at the stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHaley
But I respect your views as being your right to have them and express them as you wish. Please let me do the same. Express my views as I deem fit.
I don't think anyone is interfering with your right to express your views.
. . . If Christians are wrong and Jesus was not God made flesh . . . I wonder how God, assuming the God of the Bible/Torah/Quran still exists, will treat Christians? . . .
I wonder if we'll be sent to the deepest depths of hell, or endure a painful destruction? Do you think he could be at all merciful?
First . . . There is --and never has been-- a place of eternal torment, or, 'hellfire'. That is an absolutely horrid, pagan myth! What the Bible itself says about the future of the incorrigibly wicked is quite different:
"The future of the wicked will be cut off." (Psalm 37:38)
"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of eternal destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9a)
"[The wicked will perish . . . vanish . . . vanish like smoke." (Psalm 37:20)
"The wicked are . . . like the chaff that the wind blows away." (Psalm 1:4)
However, after the words “witness bearers”, at the end of verse 7, in:
- the cursive mss No. 61 (16th century);
- No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century);
- and, Vgc . . .
the following words appear:
“in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one.”
Those words are not found in the אABVgSyh,p. manuscript, which is much older than those manuscripts. So, someone inserted those words long after the writing of the Bible --as inspired by God-- was done. (The last of the Bible writers died around 98 C.E. . . . several hundredyears before that text 'found its way' into the Bible!)
Other Bible texts *claimed by Trinitarians* to support the trinity, *only* do so once their meanings have been *twisted out of context.*
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Note how several experts attest to this:
TheNewEncyclopædiaBritannica says:
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrinedeveloped gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The NewCatholicEncyclopedia states:
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title theTrinitariandogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
In TheEncyclopediaAmericana we read:
“Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
According to the NouveauDictionnaireUniversel,
“The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.
John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his DictionaryoftheBible, says:
“The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
Jesus Christ describes his real followers as people who follow & teach only Bible truths:
"[The] true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit andtruth, for indeed . . . those worshipping him must worship with spirit andtruth." (John 4:23, 24)
As for how forgiving God is . . .
“Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.” (Isaiah 55:7)
"As far off as the sunrise is from the sunset, So far off from us he has put our transgressions.
As a father shows mercy to his sons,
Jehovah has shown mercy to those who fear him." (Psalm 103:12-13)
“‘Return to me,’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies, ‘and I shall return to You,’ Jehovah of armies has said.”’ (Zechariah 1:3b)
"I, I am the One who is blotting out your transgressions . . . And I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:25)
It's not something I've thought that much about, but if Christians are wrong and Jesus was not God made flesh, and the Jews, Muslims.etc are correct, I wonder how God, assuming the God of the Bible/Torah/Quran still exists, will treat Christians? I'm not saying I worry too much about it, but for the first time I really thought about it today, imagine if Christianity was a Jewish/Roman cult? It's kind of scary to think, I don't want you to second guess your faith, but I guess it's what atheists have been saying all along.
I wonder if we'll be sent to the deepest depths of hell, or endure a painful destruction? Do you think he could be at all merciful?
Have you been to heaven that you have seen the father?
When Jesus said that he had been to heaven, consider that there is a set plan and design that if you follow, you will also be stood on your feet and taken too heaven yourself.
This takes place on the feast of trumpets, the marriage feast.
You begin your walk as Elijah if you have begun a serious walk. But the point of being the prophet who calls fire down from heaven is only to show a vain prophet who has fire proceeding out of his mouth, and there cannot be two prophets.
When you have realized that you are the prophet of fire, and you realize that you were vain, conceited and of a wrong spirit, you die to that prophet, and if you ever do this, you step right into Rosh Hashanah.
Revelation 11
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
YOU ARE THE TWO WITNESSES, the water is a witness in you, the blood is a witness in you, but if God has given power to his two witnesses, it means that you have received power in two places of your own self. It is the flesh that is going around prophesying fire out of his mouth because the inner man was given power and it's brightness is also seen in the flesh.
So the question is, '' Did Jesus walk accordingly to the plan through Pesach, through Shavuot to come into Rosh Hashanah?''
If a person completes the walk and goes all the way to death like Elijah refused to do, will he be taken to heaven while still on Earth?
Another man had to be appointed to take Elijah's place, and we see the two divided, and then a double portion was given to the man left behind.
This is the same walk that we walk as the prophet in Elijah, But Elijah needs to be taken out of the way so that Elisha can step in to teach and to build a place to dwell among the sons of the prophets of Ephraim.
The days of Elijah's prophecy was 3 and a half years, or 42 months, or 1260 days that speak of Elijah prophesying to the Northern kingdom of Ephraim, but the plan is to go all the way to death, and so if we ever stop being the vain conceited prophet who calls fire down from heaven, we die, and then we are stood on our feet, and taken to heaven.
Is this why Jesus says,'' I have been to the father?''
It is according to a ladder that you walk right into the kingdom while on this Earth, it is within you.
Jesus was born a man, and as a man, he walked like a man who had a ladder and a plan to enter the kingdom of heaven while on Earth.
Those 3 and a half years, the 42 months, the 1260 days are only shown to show the first one third of a walk.
Jesus walked into the wilderness to become the prophet, Tempted by Satan as all people must go through, but most people accept the temptation never having realized it.
There is a set order of things and exact days things HAVE to happen, he HAD to be a Prophet on an exact day, and he walked as a prophet for an exact amount of days, and when he became a priest, it was on an exact set day according to the plan.
He had finished his walk as a priest on the day he became the king, he graduated as all must pass from level to level.
We are shown what the kingdom of heaven is when we see Elijah, Moses, and Jesus standing on the 3 peaks of Hermon.
The 3 peaks of Hermon are covered in snow, and the snow melts and goes down into the Jordan, and then unto the dead sea{I digress}.
What have you seen if you have seen the kingdom of heaven?
A prophet
A priest
A King
That's what YOU ARE.
Elijah is the least in the kingdom because he is the first step in a walk, but Elijah is a man of vanity and flesh as he calls fire down from heaven and he refuses to die, and so he runs 40 days.
He runs 40 days because God is showing him the plan, the same plan Moses had to complete 3 times. Moses had to do the 40 days but when he came down the mountain, he found the people in adultery, and so Moses had to turn around and begin again, and this time things had changed, it was then that the ark of the covenant had to be made, and this did not need to happen, but it was a result of the adultery.
So Elijah is shown the plan and he had went to the mountain and God showed him very clearly that he was not in the fire, not in the wind, and not in the earthquake.
Elijah brought all these things, and we saw disciples wanting to do these things, but Jesus looked at them and said,'' You speak the words of your father Satan.''
Their spirit wanted to call fire down from heaven.
First . . . There is --and never has been-- a place of eternal torment, or, 'hellfire'. That is an absolutely horrid, pagan myth! What the Bible itself says about the future of the incorrigibly wicked is quite different:
"The future of the wicked will be cut off." (Psalm 37:38)
"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of eternal destruction." (2 Thessalonians 1:9a)
"[The wicked will perish . . . vanish . . . vanish like smoke." (Psalm 37:20)
"The wicked are . . . like the chaff that the wind blows away." (Psalm 1:4)
I am very impressed with this post. You speak to things that I have read (or not read) in the King James Version of the Holy Bible. I hope you will share more of your insights with me as I am still sorting through the web that the Bible seems to have weaved.
I, too, found nothing in the Bible that talks about hell as a place of eternal damnation. What I found outlines what you have said above. A burning hell of torment seems to be an organized religion thing meant to keep people in line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Q&Lrn&Hlp
The Bible doesn't even teach there is any 'afterlife', let alone 'eternal torment'!
I kept thinking I had missed something because I didn't find anything referring to an afterlife, even though God promised everlasting life. No where in the Bible, that I can find, does it say anything about us "going to heaven". I didn't find anything about where or what this everlasting life is. That troubles me because it seems there should be something. Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Q&Lrn&Hlp
Now, regarding 'if' the Trinity teaching is wrong . . . Consider the highly questionable origin of one of the main texts that it is based upon:
Sorry, I snipped the rest. I agree that there is no Trinity - even when I was sitting in the Methodist church singing the Doxology. I have not read any of the texts you have cited. For me, reading the Bible as a unit, from front to back, gave me the answer. The only thing I ever found that could be used to support the trinity (as opposed to the hundreds of things that disprove it) was a statement by Jesus. I am paraphrasing: My father and I are one. I took this statement to mean that they were one in mind and goals, not one entity.
I offer as food for thought for those holding on to the trinity: If God came to earth in the form of a man, who was he praying to when he prayed? Who was he calling father? Why would God walk the earth and say that his father was in heaven? When God was on the cross, why did he call out to his father and why did he asked why he was forsaken? There are no rational answers for those entombed in organized religion. I think the better question would be: What if your organized religion is wrong? And even more important: How did organized religion get it all so wrong?
Have you been to heaven that you have seen the father?
When Jesus said that he had been to heaven, consider that there is a set plan and design that if you follow, you will also be stood on your feet and taken too heaven yourself.
This takes place on the feast of trumpets, the marriage feast.
You begin your walk as Elijah if you have begun a serious walk. But the point of being the prophet who calls fire down from heaven is only to show a vain prophet who has fire proceeding out of his mouth, and there cannot be two prophets.
When you have realized that you are the prophet of fire, and you realize that you were vain, conceited and of a wrong spirit, you die to that prophet, and if you ever do this, you step right into Rosh Hashanah.
Revelation 11
And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
YOU ARE THE TWO WITNESSES, the water is a witness in you, the blood is a witness in you, but if God has given power to his two witnesses, it means that you have received power in two places of your own self. It is the flesh that is going around prophesying fire out of his mouth because the inner man was given power and it's brightness is also seen in the flesh.
So the question is, '' Did Jesus walk accordingly to the plan through Pesach, through Shavuot to come into Rosh Hashanah?''
If a person completes the walk and goes all the way to death like Elijah refused to do, will he be taken to heaven while still on Earth?
Another man had to be appointed to take Elijah's place, and we see the two divided, and then a double portion was given to the man left behind.
This is the same walk that we walk as the prophet in Elijah, But Elijah needs to be taken out of the way so that Elisha can step in to teach and to build a place to dwell among the sons of the prophets of Ephraim.
The days of Elijah's prophecy was 3 and a half years, or 42 months, or 1260 days that speak of Elijah prophesying to the Northern kingdom of Ephraim, but the plan is to go all the way to death, and so if we ever stop being the vain conceited prophet who calls fire down from heaven, we die, and then we are stood on our feet, and taken to heaven.
Is this why Jesus says,'' I have been to the father?''
It is according to a ladder that you walk right into the kingdom while on this Earth, it is within you.
Jesus was born a man, and as a man, he walked like a man who had a ladder and a plan to enter the kingdom of heaven while on Earth.
Those 3 and a half years, the 42 months, the 1260 days are only shown to show the first one third of a walk.
Jesus walked into the wilderness to become the prophet, Tempted by Satan as all people must go through, but most people accept the temptation never having realized it.
There is a set order of things and exact days things HAVE to happen, he HAD to be a Prophet on an exact day, and he walked as a prophet for an exact amount of days, and when he became a priest, it was on an exact set day according to the plan.
He had finished his walk as a priest on the day he became the king, he graduated as all must pass from level to level.
We are shown what the kingdom of heaven is when we see Elijah, Moses, and Jesus standing on the 3 peaks of Hermon.
The 3 peaks of Hermon are covered in snow, and the snow melts and goes down into the Jordan, and then unto the dead sea{I digress}.
What have you seen if you have seen the kingdom of heaven?
A prophet
A priest
A King
That's what YOU ARE.
Elijah is the least in the kingdom because he is the first step in a walk, but Elijah is a man of vanity and flesh as he calls fire down from heaven and he refuses to die, and so he runs 40 days.
He runs 40 days because God is showing him the plan, the same plan Moses had to complete 3 times. Moses had to do the 40 days but when he came down the mountain, he found the people in adultery, and so Moses had to turn around and begin again, and this time things had changed, it was then that the ark of the covenant had to be made, and this did not need to happen, but it was a result of the adultery.
So Elijah is shown the plan and he had went to the mountain and God showed him very clearly that he was not in the fire, not in the wind, and not in the earthquake.
Elijah brought all these things, and we saw disciples wanting to do these things, but Jesus looked at them and said,'' You speak the words of your father Satan.''
Their spirit wanted to call fire down from heaven.
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand any of this. I read it 4 times and I just could not follow your train of thought.
...the trinity is a lie.....JESUS IS GOD THE FATHER....THE ONE GOD...WHO IS GOD...WHO MANIFEST IN FLESH AS JESUS CHRIST HIS SON....JESUS WILL RETURN AS GOD THE FATHER....
It's not something I've thought that much about, but if Christians are wrong and Jesus was not God made flesh, and the Jews, Muslims.etc are correct, I wonder how God, assuming the God of the Bible/Torah/Quran still exists, will treat Christians? I'm not saying I worry too much about it, but for the first time I really thought about it today, imagine if Christianity was a Jewish/Roman cult? It's kind of scary to think, I don't want you to second guess your faith, but I guess it's what atheists have been saying all along.
I wonder if we'll be sent to the deepest depths of hell, or endure a painful destruction? Do you think he could be at all merciful?
I'm sorry, but I didn't understand any of this. I read it 4 times and I just could not follow your train of thought.
Don't feel lonely, I just Babylon all the time.
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