News, The Time Mormons Baptized Adolf Hitler and Vlad the Impaler (ghost, quote)
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Thank you for the clarifying information and this confirmation of my initial assessment of this ritual as a thoughtful act of love.
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
I think there is a vast number of people that see it differently.
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Originally Posted by TXNGL
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Originally Posted by Ironman2
No, I am a Spiritualist. But you have to admit it is rather thoughtful of them to be worried that we might not have had the right rituals in our life prior to death and seek to repair the mistake. As a Spiritualist, I see rituals as useful in affecting the spiritual state of mind of the participants but that is not really possible for those who are laready dead. I do not credit rituals with any magical or mystical power to achieve anything. They are harmless in and of themselves. Why get so perturbed over them?
I agree and that's why I don't get upset about it happening to me, but I understand why others (for whom rituals are important) do. I do find the habit of them baptising Jewish victims of the halocaust very offensive. To me it shows no repect to those people or their religion. Did I read that they stopped doing it?
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
Kat's surely still got bruises from the beatings he's had on here. That's really a shame since all he's tried to do is explain his beliefs and those of his church, of which he is not an official spokesperson.
This seems an awful lot like a tempest in a teapot. The competitiveness among religions has always struck me as a bit of childish sibling rivalry for a favored position with our universal Parent. It is like "My Father can beat up your Father" in essence. How can what the LDS church members do in any way affect you, your religion or your relationship to God, or for that matter the dead holocaust victims' religion or their relationship with God?
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
I think, while you see one side of the Baptism by Proxy issue, it is only fair to keep in mind that there are some people who would tell you, "Positively, absolutely, don't do that for me when I'm gone." I know one gut that is an angry, outspoken atheist, who would curse you for eternity if you did that in his name. It's just two points of view.
This is particularly strange, since atheists typically do not believe in the afterlife. Hard to imagine why or how they would curse anyone for eternity.
Kat's surely still got bruises from the beatings he's had on here. That's really a shame since all he's tried to do is explain his beliefs and those of his church, of which he is not an official spokesperson.
The real irony of the xian religion is that Hitler could have done a pre-suicide confession and "sinner's prayer and be exonerated of his crimes and be in heaven while the holocaust Jews who "rejected" Jesus are destined to hell. Hitler was anyway a xian who thought he was doing the "will of god" albeit perverted in many ways.
It all makes perfect sense when you stand on your head and tightly close your eyes and whistle Yankee Doodle out of your rear end.
The real irony of the xian religion is that Hitler could have done a pre-suicide confession and "sinner's prayer and be exonerated of his crimes and be in heaven while the holocaust Jews who "rejected" Jesus are destined to hell.
FYI, not all Christians believe in deathbed repentence or the "sinner's prayer."
Interesting. So their concern for the fate of others extends into the after life. It is an endearing belief to not want anyone to be deprived of whatever they think is a necessary ritual, even by death. It is very spiritualist and thoughtful of them. It seems not all Christians are punitive and condemning. They seem very Christ-like, in my opinion.
My son converted to Morman, and when he gets back from his mission will be visiting for a while. Religion will not be a topic of discussion, but he knows how I feel about it already. As someone who is wiccan, this lifetime is just a lifetime used to perfect the self. He said its the choice of the deceased soul to accept or reject. I think its an act of great disrespect to those proxy babtised, and as a specific act of disrespect, also an act of bad karma on the part of those who do the deed which will return to them. Personally I want an unbabtismal ceremony to wash away all remnants of any unchosen in the heart babtisms in past lifetmes, for to me it leaves behind a great charge of negativity. Call it a soul clensing.
I can respect that those who choose to become Mormons have to learn about the church and its ideas before over time choose which is better than lightening choices to be 'saved'.
I'm going to post just once, because literally every time this topic comes up, things get nasty really, really fast. It doesn't seem to matter how I explain the doctrine of baptism for the dead, most people apparently don't read what I've said anyway. If they do read it, they don't pay any attention to it. This is evident to me because they turn around two or three posts later and make the same assertions they made in the first place. I then repeat myself and the cycle starts all over again. This time, I'm not getting sucked into the discussion. Here are the facts...
1. Jesus Christ taught that baptism is a requirement for the fullness of salvation. (That doesn't mean that anyone who is not baptized ends up in Hell, but I don't want to get too far off topic, so I'll leave it at this right now.)
2. We believe that it was known and understood in Jesus' day that baptism must be by immersion and must be performed by someone holding the proper authority.
3. Billions of good people have lived and died without ever having even heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, much less having received a proper, recognized baptism.
4. Baptism is an earthly ordinance/sacrament. It is impossible to baptize a spirit. Only a physical body can be immersed in water.
5. We believe that when a person dies, his spirit (i.e. his life essence) leaves his body but continues to exist as a cognizant entity in a realm known as the Spirit World, where he will await his own resurrection and judgement.
6. While in the Spirit World, those who did not have the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ while on earth will be given that chance.
7. Those who hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Spirit World can repent of their sins; because they no longer have a physical body, however, they cannot be baptized.
8. Anciently, proxy baptisms were performed by Christians on behalf of their deceased loved-ones.
9. That practice has been reestablished today and exists as a doctrinal component of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
10. An LDS person may stand as proxy for someone who has died and be baptized in that person's name.
11. This is a goodwill offering performed out of love and a sincere belief that if Jesus said baptism is required, He must have meant it.
12. The spirit of the person for whom the baptism was performed may either accept or reject it. If he accepts it, he will be considered by God to have been baptized himself. If he rejects it, it will be as if it never took place. Baptism does not equal conversion, and no one can be converted against his will.
13. We have been told repeatedly by the leaders of our Church to perform proxy baptisms only for our own deceased family members, and not for dead celebrities or Holocaust victims. 99.9% of all Mormons comply with these instructions. Unfortunately, a few do not. The Church has recently starting dealing harshly with its members who continue to disregard these instructions.
14. We do not count persons baptized by proxy as being members of our Church since we have no way of knowing whether they accepted the baptism done on their behalf or not.
If anyone would like to know more, please DM me. I'd be happy to answer questions, but I refuse to become involved in an argument I've had repeatedly in the past.
I do not believe or accept Jesus Christ or the christan/mormon god. I am also wiccan and at the end of this life will be another one, which will have a purpose to further move towards true spirituality. Just as this life was intended to resolve and let go of damage from the one past. I do not want, or need a psudo babtism. Where can I sign up for the list of those not to have this indiginity and act of disrespect performed? I do not believe that anyone had the right to presume. It doesn't matter that it officially didn't exist. It did and every act leaves effects. As one who would not choose, for one who presumes it is a return of the negativity. If I disrespect someone who has made a choice, then the negativity will come back on my existance. Why would it be any different?
Why is it impossible for a mormon to understand that this is not their right nor is it in any way respectful?
If anyone would like to know more, please DM me. I'd be happy to answer questions, but I refuse to become involved in an argument I've had repeatedly in the past.
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Originally Posted by nightbird47
I do not believe or accept Jesus Christ or the christan/mormon god. I am also wiccan and at the end of this life will be another one, which will have a purpose to further move towards true spirituality. Just as this life was intended to resolve and let go of damage from the one past. I do not want, or need a psudo babtism. Where can I sign up for the list of those not to have this indiginity and act of disrespect performed? I do not believe that anyone had the right to presume. It doesn't matter that it officially didn't exist. It did and every act leaves effects. As one who would not choose, for one who presumes it is a return of the negativity. If I disrespect someone who has made a choice, then the negativity will come back on my existance. Why would it be any different?
Why is it impossible for a mormon to understand that this is not their right nor is it in any way respectful?
If anyone would like to know more, please DM me. I'd be happy to answer questions, but I refuse to become involved in an argument I've had repeatedly in the past.
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News, The Time Mormons Baptized Adolf Hitler and Vlad the Impaler
