Trying to understand the meaning of "God's plan" (Isaiah, church)
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In the simplest term Good is acting in obedience to God. evil is disobeying God. all other concepts of good and evil are human concepts.
We do live in a physical world this physical world is subject to physical laws. the physical laws are applicable to all people. they do not discriminate and show neither malice nor favoritism.
We are all a very small part of God(swt)'s plan. We as part of the plan can not see the entire plan anymore than a puzzle piece can see the full Puzzle. We do know that a part of that plan is we are to exist for a short time in this physical realm. Part of the purpose is for us to face choices and to learn to accept the responsibility for our choices. another part is to face the tests of how well we make our choices and learn from our experiences. Life here is a trial and a learning experience. It is a very short period of time, so we had best do all things to our full ability.
Originally Posted by Eusebius O.K. tell me what you are free to do. Are people free to quit smoking cigarettes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont
Absolutely, as I believe in free will, unencumbered by the will of some deity. Whether one succeeds at quitting smoking is entirely up to that person. Maybe he or she can quit on his or her own. Maybe he or she needs a support group or medicinal help.
But in the end, the result is based on our actions. No puppetry needed.
My dear friend,
No choice is uncaused. So if someone quits smoking they were caused to quit either by being shamed into it or by a fear of death or cancer which was a far greater power over them than the joy of smoking.
If our choices are caused then we are not responsible for what caused us to make our choices.
If our choices are free from cause then we are not responsible for our choices since there was no cause to make the choice. So either way man is not responsible.
My dear friend,
No choice is uncaused. So if someone quits smoking they were caused to quit either by being shamed into it or by a fear of death or cancer which was a far greater power over them than the joy of smoking.
If our choices are caused then we are not responsible for what caused us to make our choices.
If our choices are free from cause then we are not responsible for our choices since there was no cause to make the choice. So either way man is not responsible.
We could really get into a whole side debate about whether free will actually exists or if we are all just the results of brain chemistry and neural reactions, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is this: if the universe really is just a mechanism by which god enacts his Infallible Plan, then we are nothing but puppets/clay pots, and life itself is cosmic joke. That's gross. That would be a disgusting god.
However, the Bible ascribes certain attributes to God: he is all powerful, all knowing, and totally benevolent.
If he is all knowing, he's fully aware of all suffering.
If he's all powerful, he's fully capable to removing all suffering.
If he's totally benevolent, he doesn't want anyone to suffer.
These three things do not go together with suffering no matter what kind of tap dance you care to make around it. Explaining how all three of those attributes can coexist with the slightest bit of suffering anywhere in the world is known as "theodicy". It's a whole field of endeavor.
No, since God is all knowing, all powerful and totally benevolent then since there is suffering and evil it must be that it is what is best for mankind.
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This is far from a universal Christian belief. Many Christians (and most Christians I've known, including myself when I was a Christian) believe that, as the Bible says, some will be with god forever and some will go to eternal punishment. "Eternal" seems fairly clear to me. But even if yours is the True Faith, even temporary suffering is incompatible with god's asserted tri-omni character.
God, being all-powerful, is capable of dropping knowledge directly into people's minds; no lessons required. If he does not do this, preferring painful contrasts instead, then he's deliberately choosing suffering over knowledge.
The problem is with the translation one uses. In the Greek, "eternal" is never once used nor in the Hebrew. Neither Olam nor Aiwn were ever used to describe eternality nor any of their adjectival forms.
Of course God is capable of dropping knowledge directly into people's minds. Since He does not always do this it must be in His wisdom that mankind need to learn their lessons the way He deems best.
We could really get into a whole side debate about whether free will actually exists or if we are all just the results of brain chemistry and neural reactions, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is this: if the universe really is just a mechanism by which god enacts his Infallible Plan, then we are nothing but puppets/clay pots, and life itself is cosmic joke. That's gross. That would be a disgusting god.
Really? Do you find it disgusting to watch Sesame Street?
Do you find it disgusting when a General rides his horse into battle forcing the horse this way and that way right into harms way? Do you consider that disgusting?
Really? Do you find it disgusting to watch Sesame Street?
Do you find it disgusting when a General rides his horse into battle forcing the horse this way and that way right into harms way? Do you consider that disgusting?
No. I also don't see the relevance. Or, rather, I see where you're attempting to make an analogy, but it isn't fleshed out enough to really comment on. Maybe you could attempt to clarify?
The point about Sesame Street is inane. I don't find actual puppets disgusting. That should be clear to anyone with a modicum of critical reasoning.
The use of animals in warfare is old-fashioned now. I wouldn't approve of a general riding into battle in today's warfare. But in the end, humans have a level of cognition beyond animals that sets them apart. I'm all for responsible use of animals, when they are used in a service capacity.
But again: the idea I find disgusting is that a god would create a universe for the sole purpose of moving the pieces around in his Infallible Plan. That isn't a universe worth creating. If we exist only to serve the whim of god's Infallible Plan, then life is a dreary, ultimately meaningless thing, when viewed from our vantage point. And I find religions that have these features to be utterly depressing and disturbing.
"Gods Plan" if this is Gods plan then it is really messed up and God must be really messed up. God creates a universe that is the most hostile place in existance, creates life just so it can be wiped out, 99.9% of all life that has existed on Earth has went the way of extinction, now how messed up is that. If it were Gods plan to bring forth mankind, then why wait so long to do it, why did it take God 15 billion years to bring forth humans. Was God busy doing something else, maybe creating other universes to practice Gods sadistic humor. If God had a plan then maybe God should have consulted with the other Gods before bring this plan in being, because He sure messed this one up.
I am saying what I said and its quite clear. The plan of salvation was not possible without evil being included;.
God was not limited by what was possible. When you're God, everything is possible. If you do not admit to that, then you must concede that there were already laws in place before God's creation took place, and now you need a new Super-God to account for those laws, and there goes your God concept out the window. How's that for something that is "quite clear"?
Consider that 99.99% of all organisms that are capable of feeling pain, die the most excruciatingly horrible death that it is possible to imagine. Dissolved alive in the stomach acids of something higher up the food chain, except for the lucky few that get killed quickly, ripped apart by teeth and claws. Do you really think Life is pretty? The real question about "God's Plan" should be, Is there any Good in it, or is it all Evil?
Ok so according to some theists, god has an infallible plan. And since evil must and does occur as part of the plan, doesn't that make the plan and therefore god evil? Can anyone clarify this?
God is Holy. Sin is Evil. Angels and man sinned against a Holy God thus are evil. God is good, love, Holy, Just, merciful, longsuffering, etc...
God created Angels and Man with the ability to choose. He did not create robots. Yes he did know that with this incredible responsibility, both angels and man would rebel; but it does not mean that the angels and man did not have FREE WILL to rebel and did so at THEIR/AND OUR RESPONSIBILITY. The choice is ours to make.
Man is created in God's image. Man has been given a mind as God has a mind. God ultimately wants fellowship with his free agent created entities not robots.
God does have a plan for man. You can either choose to be part of it by accepting what he's done for you in and through Jesus Christ in forgiveness of sins having God's Justice appeased on that Cross or you can choose to continue and rebel to suffer the consequences of a Just God having God's Justice fall upon your own head.
According to the Word, those that are without God are without the source of ALL good, love, and hope and will be separated from him for ever.
Just like Pilate, how you Judge Christ is how you will be judged. In the end, you dictate your own sentence. In God's Righteousness and Justice, he must act according to how YOU responded.
We all have our day of accountability before our Maker. If our sins are forgiven through accepting Jesus Christ as Savior repenting toward God in this life than we will be with him. If not we will be without him.
All the goodness that we currently take for granted will be unavailable in Gehenna/The Darkness Outside. There will be no Pity and no prayers answered.
TODAY is the day of Salvation. There might not be a tomorrow. God's goodness and outstretched arm is currently still available, but the day is coming where that arm will be withdrawn.
My dear friend,
No choice is uncaused. So if someone quits smoking they were caused to quit either by being shamed into it or by a fear of death or cancer which was a far greater power over them than the joy of smoking.
If our choices are caused then we are not responsible for what caused us to make our choices.
If our choices are free from cause then we are not responsible for our choices since there was no cause to make the choice. So either way man is not responsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillmont
We could really get into a whole side debate about whether free will actually exists or if we are all just the results of brain chemistry and neural reactions, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making, which is this: if the universe really is just a mechanism by which god enacts his Infallible Plan, then we are nothing but puppets/clay pots, and life itself is cosmic joke. That's gross. That would be a disgusting god.
It is always an interesting debate when we consider human will. I am far more interested in human imagination which is capable of complete creation without any apparent existing prior causal linkage. Its products are truly unique to existing reality. That seems to me to establish our "free-ness" of will.
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