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Old 01-13-2013, 09:16 AM
 
392 posts, read 247,511 times
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A soul cannot hope to properly learn about itself through materialism.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Ireland
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The bible is a collection of contradictions.
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overcastg4 View Post
A soul cannot hope to properly learn about itself through materialism.
Since you chose to insert the word "properly" you are claiming self-knowledge gained via materialism to be incomplete and/or misleading and/or ... well, improper, I guess. Is that about the size of it?

It seems to me that one must accept whatever verifiable data one encounters regardless of whether one finds it pleasing or entirely satisfying. I don't claim to find seeing myself as an insignificant mote in an impersonal and indifferent universe to be a warm and fuzzy realization, but then neither do I reject this when I see that it fits with my observations and experience.

By contrast the idea that god "loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life" was something that I found pleasing but ultimately it did not fit with logic, observable evidence, verifiable fact, or personal experience. What can I say; it is what it is.

In fairness to you, such ascetic ideas are old and widespread throughout history, so they have some currency, some inherent appeal in a wide variety of spiritual belief-systems. Physical world: bad, temporal. Spiritual world: good, eternal. What is the appeal? In my view, it's a tool to deflect from the unfulfilled promises of various perks for the righteous: comfort, protection / safety, wisdom, joy, health, prosperity and the like are unambiguously promised to persons and nations who follow god, yet these things are strangely elusive in this life. So we must displace them to an afterlife and adjure people to be patient, to recognize their true citizenship to lie in heaven, for this earthly existence to be, relatively speaking, a brief if unpleasant prelude to the endless feast of happiness, peace and abundance that is conveniently just around the corner behind door #1.
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Old 01-13-2013, 12:10 PM
 
392 posts, read 247,511 times
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Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I don't claim to find seeing myself as an insignificant mote in an impersonal and indifferent universe to be a warm and fuzzy realization
Both materialism and theism have their perks. The problem is that materialism is corrosive to the man and his physical body.
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Old 01-13-2013, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Westminster, CO
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Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
How does "not knowing" require faith? Do you require faith to conclude that 2 + 2 = 4? No. Simply evaluating facts is not considered faith. Therefore one needn't have faith to be an atheist.
Just as no person of faith can prove that there is a supreme being, no atheist can prove that there is not a supreme being.
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Old 01-13-2013, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
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Originally Posted by overcastg4 View Post
Both materialism and theism have their perks. The problem is that materialism is corrosive to the man and his physical body.
How so?
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Old 01-13-2013, 08:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rhacer View Post
Just as no person of faith can prove that there is a supreme being, no atheist can prove that there is not a supreme being.
The inability to prove that ANYTHING does not exist, doesn't require faith. Do you have faith that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, or did your logical mind come to this conclusion?
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Old 01-13-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,683,804 times
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Default Faith in ----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
The inability to prove that ANYTHING does not exist, doesn't require faith. Do you have faith that the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist, or did your logical mind come to this conclusion?
Faith in the tooth fairy never changed anyone's life, but history is replete with individuals that claim faith in God made a difference in their lives. And then led lives that made a difference in the lives of others.

No it's not empirical evidence. Faith isn't empirical--but it can and has--made huge positive differences for many people. And that part of faith cannot be argued away. I'm not going to engage in a battle of naming individuals who made a positive difference vs. those that did the opposite. There are always a few who claim faith in God but live the opposite of His commandment to love one another as you love yourself.

Works don't create faith, but faith makes one want to work for the good.

And engaging in Bible arguments is generally counterproductive even among Christians, let alone unbelievers, as I think TWD may be discovering.
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Old 01-14-2013, 04:00 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,678,753 times
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Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Faith in the tooth fairy never changed anyone's life, but history is replete with individuals that claim faith in God made a difference in their lives. And then led lives that made a difference in the lives of others.

No it's not empirical evidence. Faith isn't empirical--but it can and has--made huge positive differences for many people. And that part of faith cannot be argued away. I'm not going to engage in a battle of naming individuals who made a positive difference vs. those that did the opposite. There are always a few who claim faith in God but live the opposite of His commandment to love one another as you love yourself.

Works don't create faith, but faith makes one want to work for the good.

And engaging in Bible arguments is generally counterproductive even among Christians, let alone unbelievers, as I think TWD may be discovering.
Yes, discussing the Bible does strengthen the argument for nonbelievers, so I agree with your assessment. But, I don't understand your statement that "faith makes one want to work for the good". To what "good" are you referring? "His Commandment" was around long before the Christian faith and Jesus, so He can't really take credit for that. Yes, faith has made a positive difference in many people's lives, just as non-belief has. So, this really isn't a good argument for the existence of God.
What we've been discussing is whether or not atheism requires faith, not necessarily the existence of the Bible god or the Tooth Fairy. And, I doubt that anyone can make a reasonable argument that it does.
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Old 01-14-2013, 05:12 AM
 
434 posts, read 341,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overcastg4 View Post
Both materialism and theism have their perks. The problem is that materialism is corrosive to the man and his physical body.
Some forms of theism are certainly corrosive to the mental 'body'
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