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Of course it's not error free. That's groundless, infantile nonsense.
It's not even internally consistent.
The Bible--great beauty, mystery, wisdom and profound philosophy. Some history blended with much symbolism, mythology and legend.
While not free of errors, that does not mean that the messages it contains to convey to us are not "Truth." I believe The Bible contains "Truth" even when it utilizes the vehicles of myth and parable to convey that "Truth."
Simply because it is comprised largely of myths does not mean it contains lies.
It IS a collection of books containing truth and wisdom. As I've said here before, The Bible is--to my knowledge--the pinnacle achievement of th human mind and heart. There is nothing--no work of art or literature or poetry--that contains as much majesty and grandeur and amazing and wondrous stories. It really is the basis of Western Civilization.
I would argue that reading The Bible strictly as a pure historical record and asserting that it is 100% error-free and contains totally accurate and valid history with no legend, myth or embellishment (we know it is not) actually robs it of its deeper meaning.
Wow. You have expressed my own personal feelings exactly.
Sigh, the point is YOU atheists are the ones making claims "THe Bible is all myth". "The Bible is full of errors". "God is not real, It's a FACT". THat's your claim, so why do you get to make claims and not have to prove jack? Because by default, the negative claim is 100% true?
If you seriously wanted proof, you would first outline required parameters that would allow for zero dispute. I bet you can't even do that.
TWD, you waste your time. There is no "evidence" of God in the sense that these posters want. Now I do believe that they really are SEEKING God, because someone with no interest in God wouldn't waste their time on this thread or provoking Christians. They are hung up with a need for "evidence" in a scientific sense.
But the Bible was never written as a "fact" book or an "evidence" book. All of the diverse chapters were written by people inspired by God, to be a FAITH book. The great Danish theologian, Soren Kierkegaard even wrote, "The best thing we can do is put all the Bibles in a big pile and burn them."
He was saying that the Bible frequently gets in the way of FAITH. And it does. He proposed that faith is akin to a person standing on the edge of a cliff who then leaps off with complete confidence that he will fall into the arms of God. That is hard statement for Christians to understand, and nigh impossible for non-Christians who haven't made the tiniest bit of faith--the mustard seed of faith that will move mountains.
On another thread I wrote:
_________________________________________
People of faith don't need evidence. In Isaiah Chapter 6, Isaiah relates a story about going into the Holy place of the temple and seeing God, with seraphims flying around Him. A number of centuries later Antiochus of Epiphanes, after conquering the Jews, rode his horse into the same temple and cried, "I see no God."
The difference is in the eyes of the beholder. One had eyes of faith, the other the eyes of man.
If you need evidence of God, then you cannot have faith in God. God is about faith, not evidence. Unfortunately, too many Christians are seeking "evidence" themselves in order to debate with those who lack the eyes of faith. Without eyes of faith no argument will convince you, and no Christian should try.
But as for me and my house, we shall worship the Lord.
And, by the way, we do NOT attend church.
_________________________________________
The only thing that speaks to those who truly seek God is the example of a godly life, one filled with love, kindness and forgiveness. You cannot argue anyone into Heaven. And frankly, I don't believe any Christian should even try. I cannot explain my personal experience with Christ, I simply can't. It was a moment of faith that changed my life. It did not make me sin-free, but it did make me sin-forgiven and with a desire to forgive others in the fashion I was forgiven.
We have men and women who go across the ocean to fight and sometimes die for the freedom of their fellow citizens and their country. God WILLINGLY gave His son to die for the sins of His enemies. It's unfathomable to those without faith. But many times it's unfathomable to those WITH faith, because they have such a difficult time showing the same love and mercy to those who are unlovable and unmerciful. It's why I no longer attend church, because the church (as a whole) today isn't telling it's members that they need to get THEIR lives right with God, they're too busy condemning gays and abortionists and people who are opposed to prayer in school. But those are the very people Christ came to die for. Instead we Christians try to use man's efforts to find solutions that can only be found through faith in God.
And it's why the Christian life is a narrow path that many will claim, but few will walk.
No one I've read has claimed the Bible is ALL myth and many of us have provided the list of errors in the Bible. No one can prove that God is not real, however, we have proven how many of the stories in the Bible are impossible scientifically and are therefore mythical, and we've proven the Bible has many errors in it. If you want to claim magic and/or supernatural intervention for these events, you must prove these exist because they are extraordinary claims.
If you can't prove that God is not real then you lose the right to claim as fact that God does not exist. Now comes the pink unicorn argument, but you know what, that doesn't work either. Maybe there is a planet out there with pink unicorns. I can't say as fact that they do not exist unless I have supreme knowledge of the entire universe. I don't and neither do you.
At best, you can say that from a purely scientific viewpoint, it is unlikely that a particular event took place. That's all.
If you can't prove that God is not real then you lose the right to claim as fact that God does not exist.
Have you ever heard the phrase "You cannot disprove a negative?"
Quote:
I can't say as fact that they do not exist unless I have supreme knowledge of the entire universe. I don't and neither do you.
This is precisely why nobody can claim to "know" whether or not a god or gods exist. There is so much we do not know about reality, existence and the universe.
It may well be that there is a god or gods. Possibly even a creator. Or some beings or some force we might consider "god-like." It is simply more than any human knows.
However, there is no reason at all to default to a belief in god(s). There is no evidence for their existence.
While we do not know whether or not there is a god, or gods, it can (and has been, repeatedly) demostrated that there is no single god ever spoken of, worshipped, written about, etc., by human beings that can be shown to be "real."
The "evolution" (if you will) of any god--even Yahweh--can be viewed historically and by comparing/contrasting the deific beliefs of various cultures.
If one views history and compares cultural myths, it becomes clear how Yahweh as well as Satan and other personages derived through accretion of various myths and cultural beliefs.
Again, there is no reason whatsoever to claim that Yaheh is real but that Shiva, Thor or Zeus are not. That is nonsense.
TWD, you waste your time. There is no "evidence" of God in the sense that these posters want. Now I do believe that they really are SEEKING God, because someone with no interest in God wouldn't waste their time on this thread or provoking Christians. They are hung up with a need for "evidence" in a scientific sense.
But the Bible was never written as a "fact" book or an "evidence" book. All of the diverse chapters were written by people inspired by God, to be a FAITH book. The great Danish theologian, Soren Kierkegaard even wrote, "The best thing we can do is put all the Bibles in a big pile and burn them."
He was saying that the Bible frequently gets in the way of FAITH. And it does. He proposed that faith is akin to a person standing on the edge of a cliff who then leaps off with complete confidence that he will fall into the arms of God. That is hard statement for Christians to understand, and nigh impossible for non-Christians who haven't made the tiniest bit of faith--the mustard seed of faith that will move mountains.
On another thread I wrote:
_________________________________________
People of faith don't need evidence. In Isaiah Chapter 6, Isaiah relates a story about going into the Holy place of the temple and seeing God, with seraphims flying around Him. A number of centuries later Antiochus of Epiphanes, after conquering the Jews, rode his horse into the same temple and cried, "I see no God."
The difference is in the eyes of the beholder. One had eyes of faith, the other the eyes of man.
If you need evidence of God, then you cannot have faith in God. God is about faith, not evidence. Unfortunately, too many Christians are seeking "evidence" themselves in order to debate with those who lack the eyes of faith. Without eyes of faith no argument will convince you, and no Christian should try.
But as for me and my house, we shall worship the Lord.
And, by the way, we do NOT attend church.
_________________________________________
The only thing that speaks to those who truly seek God is the example of a godly life, one filled with love, kindness and forgiveness. You cannot argue anyone into Heaven. And frankly, I don't believe any Christian should even try. I cannot explain my personal experience with Christ, I simply can't. It was a moment of faith that changed my life. It did not make me sin-free, but it did make me sin-forgiven and with a desire to forgive others in the fashion I was forgiven.
We have men and women who go across the ocean to fight and sometimes die for the freedom of their fellow citizens and their country. God WILLINGLY gave His son to die for the sins of His enemies. It's unfathomable to those without faith. But many times it's unfathomable to those WITH faith, because they have such a difficult time showing the same love and mercy to those who are unlovable and unmerciful. It's why I no longer attend church, because the church (as a whole) today isn't telling it's members that they need to get THEIR lives right with God, they're too busy condemning gays and abortionists and people who are opposed to prayer in school. But those are the very people Christ came to die for. Instead we Christians try to use man's efforts to find solutions that can only be found through faith in God.
And it's why the Christian life is a narrow path that many will claim, but few will walk.
Unfortunately, faith is NOT a pathway to truth. If truth requires only faith, then it cannot be claimed as being the Truth. If the Bible can be shown to be unreliable, which has been the case on these forums, then nothing in the Bible, other than what's been historically, independently documented, can be considered the Truth. I believe that you believe that you've had this "experience" with some god, as I thought I had years ago. You seem to have developed your own concept of god, which is fine, but don't try to claim some special knowledge of this god and the Truth without some evidence and don't try to diminish those of us who would expect such evidence.
BTW, a loving, kind lifestyle is not evidence of the Christian god since many Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists live the same kind of life. You need more than this to convince many of us that your god exists and performed the magic and sacrifices that you claim. Without the threat of burning in hell or not being able to see our loved ones after we die, many of us would have never become Christians, so the errant, immoral Bible and faith is really all you have.
Last edited by Amaznjohn; 01-01-2013 at 12:09 PM..
If you can't prove that God is not real then you lose the right to claim as fact that God does not exist. Now comes the pink unicorn argument, but you know what, that doesn't work either. Maybe there is a planet out there with pink unicorns. I can't say as fact that they do not exist unless I have supreme knowledge of the entire universe. I don't and neither do you.
At best, you can say that from a purely scientific viewpoint, it is unlikely that a particular event took place. That's all.
Griffis explained most of this sufficiently. But, just to add, science is all that has been proven to exist, so this is really the only yardstick we have to measure what is real and what is not. Your god does not measure up, at this point, any more than the pink unicorns.
Nope. While I do believe that the Bible was inspired by real experiences, real people, and real events, contradictions abound. I mean, heck, all you have to do is look at Christ's genealogy.
So in Matthew, there are 26 generations between David and Christ, while in Luke there are 41. The names don't even match up. For example, Christ's bloodline runs from David to Solomon in one book while it's David to Nathan in another. Heck, they can't even get the names of Christ's grandfather correct. To me, getting the lineage correct on the Messiah is pretty fundamental stuff. So which one of these is accurate? After all, Christ can only have one set of forbears. And if every single word of the Bible is the literal utterance of the Lord Almighty, that tells me that He needed a proofreader.
What's more, that's just one detail. Heck, type in Biblical Contradictions into Google and you will get hundreds. That tells me that some well-intentioned scribes back in antiquity did their level best to write this stuff down but got things wrong.
In fact, I'll go one further. I think that clinging to the notion of scriptural inerrancy denotes lack of faith, not evidence of faith itself. Because when someone tells me that every single syllable of the Bible was authored by God and is not subject to any discussion, it really is a desire for proof as opposed to faith in action.
Are you serious? We have NONE of the original manuscripts.
Nope. We have none of them. But we do have 2nd and 3rd generation ones, probably. Get enough of them and compare them and you can see what the originals were.
Nope. While I do believe that the Bible was inspired by real experiences, real people, and real events, contradictions abound. I mean, heck, all you have to do is look at Christ's genealogy.
So in Matthew, there are 26 generations between David and Christ, while in Luke there are 41. The names don't even match up. For example, Christ's bloodline runs from David to Solomon in one book while it's David to Nathan in another. To me, getting the lineage correct on the Messiah is pretty fundamental stuff. So which one of these is accurate? After all, Christ can only have one set of forbears. And if every single word of the Bible is the literal utterance of the Lord Almighty, that tells me that He needed a proofreader.
What's more, that's just one detail. Heck, type in Biblical Contradictions into Google and you will get hundreds. That tells me that some well-intentioned scribes back in antiquity did their level best to write this stuff down but got things wrong.
Not only are you accurate in your assessment of Jesus's genealogy, but how could Jesus have a genealogy that runs through Joseph, since Mary was supposedly a virgin? That storybook sure has some strange ideas.
Not only are you accurate in your assessment of Jesus's genealogy, but how could Jesus have a genealogy that runs through Joseph, since Mary was supposedly a virgin? That storybook sure has some strange ideas.
Yes indeed. Hey, the Virgin Birth isn't exactly a unique theme in ancient literature. It wasn't intended to be literal truth but rather a way for biographers of the period to demonstrate the subject's singularity. Caesar Augustus, Socrates, Zoraster, a few Egyptian kings, etc., were all ascribed virgin births well before Christ.
But even if we stick to the example cited above, that means either the passage from Luke or the passage from Matthew is inaccurate. Can't be both.
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Waste of time
Are you serious? We have NONE of the original manuscripts.
