How it is on this forum (Baptists, pray, Christian, evolution)
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I just wish more people here realized that not all theists are blinkered fundamentalists. Indeed, many of us neither follow, nor align ourselves with any religion/movement.
It is very possible to believe in a Creator AND evolution, to reference "god" or "Great Spirit" and NOT be referring to a bearded, Abrahamic manic-depressive given to fits of murderous pique. We think Christ seemed to be quite a guy. (Too bad about what's been done and said in his name.)
I am very interested in others' belief systems (or lack thereof) but many posters here assume one is either an atheist or a fundie and allows those presumptions to taint conversations - often before they really can get underway.
I wanted to ask a similar question before I stumbled on this thread. As someone who is fairly new to forums (although I've witnessed trolling and tantrums across the internet) I often wonder, do people ever read an opposing viewpoint on a forum and say, "Gee, I never thought of things that way. I'm going to reconsider my beliefs." Or at least, "I disagree with you, but I can appreciate the fact that you make a compelling argument."
For me, one of the strangest phenomena on the web is that people could theoretically be exposed to (and possibly swayed by) a huge variety of perspectives, but it seems many people just fall back on cartoonishly simplistic, cliched positions and hurl invectives at their "enemies" until the mods break up the fight.
Perhaps the overwhelming number of choices the internet affords --- in politics, as in music, film, etc., paradoxically makes people shut down and retreat in knee-jerk fashion to the comfort of the most tribal, predictable stance on any given issue.
I suppose more moderate, open-minded types find the venom and overblown rhetoric on some forums to simply be too tiresome to deal with.
I have yet to meet one atheist who wasn't rude, snarky, arrogant and extremely biased.
I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God because I have never found nor experienced any evidence for the existence of God in spite of half of a lifetime of searching. That's all there is to it.
So, how is this rude, snarky, arrogant and extremely biased?
I often wonder, do people ever read an opposing viewpoint on a forum and say, "Gee, I never thought of things that way. I'm going to reconsider my beliefs."
I just wish more people here realized that not all theists are blinkered fundamentalists. Indeed, many of us neither follow, nor align ourselves with any religion/movement.
It is very possible to believe in a Creator AND evolution, to reference "god" or "Great Spirit" and NOT be referring to a bearded, Abrahamic manic-depressive given to fits of murderous pique. We think Christ seemed to be quite a guy. (Too bad about what's been done and said in his name.)
I am very interested in others' belief systems (or lack thereof) but many posters here assume one is either an atheist or a fundie and allows those presumptions to taint conversations - often before they really can get underway.
I do have a regrettable tendency to equate theism with fundamentalism, because it's all of theism that I'm intimately acquainted with. More recently I've had some contact with liberal Christianity and I'm still working to factor it into my thinking and get my arms around it. I tend to view it as almost a separate thing from Christianity, because of residual programming from my fundamentalist past. I never saw a difference between liberal Christian practice and a social club, even when I was a theist. It comes off as pretentious rather than devout.
My point being, that many of the deconverts here are a bit reactionary because they were quite damaged by conservative Christianity and paid a high price to come out of it. We also have something of a desire to help others help themselves out of it; we know that a lot of people secretly feel trapped there, just as we did.
It is also possible that we were in fundamentalism precisely because it's not in our nature to hold convictions loosely. We don't do much of anything halfway. We don't know how to. This in turn can make us as devoted to unbelief as we were to belief.
Can I allow others the comfort of their illusions? So long as they don't proselytize me, sure. I don't feel the need to discuss it even, unless someone specifically wants to. Which is also something we all have to keep in mind, we're in a very Special Place here, where people come here for the express purpose of discussing something that for theist and atheist alike, is generally not discussed in polite company in meatspace. It's a safe place to let off steam. We should not be surprised that there's a certain amount of steam -- sometimes, more heat than light.
...And God can`t and will not present Himself for your Judgment , for He is a Majesty who rules over the Heaven and the earth , and if you do not come and surrender your will to Him on His rules then you will never have a witness of His grace .... For the witness of the supernatural witness of others will be rejected by logic of the world , were people will have to go a seek God , but prefer the lip service but no action, as logic will under mine all honor of truth ..... See if you will not seek God in your life then you will never find Him or have a witness of Him as Heaven is a reclusive place were only people who obey God commands will find Him .... And people who do find God will never forsake God on to their very existence as denier may wish..
I do have a regrettable tendency to equate theism with fundamentalism, because it's all of theism that I'm intimately acquainted with. More recently I've had some contact with liberal Christianity and I'm still working to factor it into my thinking and get my arms around it. I tend to view it as almost a separate thing from Christianity, because of residual programming from my fundamentalist past. I never saw a difference between liberal Christian practice and a social club, even when I was a theist. It comes off as pretentious rather than devout.
My point being, that many of the deconverts here are a bit reactionary because they were quite damaged by conservative Christianity and paid a high price to come out of it. We also have something of a desire to help others help themselves out of it; we know that a lot of people secretly feel trapped there, just as we did.
It is also possible that we were in fundamentalism precisely because it's not in our nature to hold convictions loosely. We don't do much of anything halfway. We don't know how to. This in turn can make us as devoted to unbelief as we were to belief.
Your insights grow keener with every post, Mordant. What you describe is called "abreaction." When any being is cumulatively frustrated over a long period of time for whatever reason . . . once the things frustrating them are removed . . . there is an extreme overreaction. The reaction is usually far in excess of what would be considered normal compensation. So the swing to fundy atheism produces far stronger beliefs than the original fundy theism beliefs. Unwittingly, as you calmly and seriously contemplate the more reasonable and liberal views of theism . . . your extreme certainty about the reasonableness of atheism should lessen.
For me the stakes couldn't possibly be lower. I won't be convinced that I'm going to hell, and I know I'm not going to be able to awaken the people here from their fantasy world. Mostly I enjoy the discussion with other Atheist in the sub-section, but unfortunately too many people IGNORE the sticky on top that says to LEAVE US ALONE in that section.
Fact: what is missing here in any attempt at honest, open-minded debate is the total lack of any polite and reasoned responses by Christians to literally any reasonable question.
A simple yes/no response, for example, to a simple question from any of us critically thinking, logical and rational atheists.
You know this is the typical (actually, it's near 100%..) response by fundy Chrisitans, don't you, Mystic my old pal!
So.. I'm quite willing to have a polite conversational debate if Robert's Rules of Order are strictly adhered to.
Now then... who's going to answer my first simple question, honestly and openly?
<cricketz...>
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Sadly, this is how it REALLY is!
