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Esau was Red when he was born.
He ate Red lentels in exchange for his birthright. Being called Edom.
And ancient Edom has the Red carved stone buildings.
So I was wondering, 'YHWH The God Of Edom'?
What could the word Edom mean to God?
Just pondering if Red has something to do with the meaning of the word Edom...
Last edited by RevelationWriter; 01-14-2013 at 04:43 PM..
Nope, Christians recognize that the notion of the Holy Trinity was recorded throughout the Bible, and see right at the beginning:
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Genesis 1:26
That Christians (a LATER religious sect) recognize it as such is great, but a LATER religion re-interpreting concepts that came long before their time to suit their own agendas and biases is another story. There is NO 'Holy Trinity' as Christians understand such a thing ANYWHERE in the Old Testament.
Quote:
And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me
Isaiah 6:8
So, you see a plural tense used in the OT. And the Trinity is certainly taught in the NT:
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 28:19
If you want to call the Trinity Polytheistic or Monothestic, it doesn't really matter. The point is that the Bible remains consistent in its teaching.
No, the bible is NOT consistent. Christians TRY to make it consistent. What you see in the bible is an EVOLUTION of theological thought over time, not consistency.
And that plural tense refers to the divine council, not to some hidden notion of the trinity that finds no other mention anywhere. Notice we have the same request for aid from the divine council in 1 Kgs 22:19–23. That council is mentioned also in Deut 32:8–9, 43; Ps 29:1; 82:1–8; 89:7; Job 1:6; 2:1. The "sons of God" (בני*אלהים) are the members of the council mentioned in Gen 1:26 and Isa 6:8. They're also mentioned in Gen 6:2, 4, and Job 38:7. They're unquestionably not humans. Job 38:7 makes that explicit. They're also demonstrably not angels, since they largely act independently of God's will.
There's absolutely nothing about the Trinity in this verse, unless you really mean to say that because later Trinitarians appropriated this verse for their liturgies, it is thus Trinitarian. That would be phenomenally fallacious, of course.
No, it absolutely does not. You have numerous direct and non-polemical references to gods in the early Hebrew Bible, and in the later Hebrew Bible they're replaced with polemical and marginalizing claims of Yhwh's exclusive rule. You want to see a cool aspect of Yhwh's relationship to the other gods? Look at 2 Kgs 3:27. It says an Israelite coalition was attacking a Moabite stronghold, but the king, Mesha, sacrificed his son on the city wall, causing a "great wrath" to overcome the Israelite army, sending them into retreat to Israel. The description of their retreat matches the vernacular used to describe Sennacherib's retreat after his army was slaughtered by an angel. The word for "wrath" in 2 Kings is a term that refers to divine fury. The text cannot possibly refer to Yhwh's fury, and so the only legitimate interpretation left to offer is that Mesha's sacrifice compelled the Moabite patron deity, Chemosh, to drive off the Israelite forces. Just like Yhwh said he would fight for Israel, so every ancient Near Eastern nation viewed its battles as being fought by their patron deity. 2 Kgs 3:27 records an instance where Chemosh defeated Yhwh, driving his forces out of his purview. Of course, your worldview can't possibly make room for that fact, so you'll retreat to google to try to find some apologetic nonsense to rationalize it away. However, the text is quite explicit, and I am always entertained by the kind of eisegetic nonsense that you and yours manage to come up with. So go ahead, entertain me. Tell me why I'm wrong.
As for the last section you wrote, permit me to piggyback Judges 11:19-24 where the Israelite judge sent a delegation to Ammon to settle a dispute over land. The Israelites, in verse 24 acknowledged the god Chemosh, the Ammonite deity, providing land for his patrons while they (the Israelites) acknowledged Yahweh as being THEIR god and the god who provided their boundaries. There was a clear understanding that the respective gods worked on behalf of their people and there was NO surprise there.
As for the last section you wrote, permit me to piggyback Judges 11:19-24 where the Israelite judge sent a delegation to Ammon to settle a dispute over land. The Israelites, in verse 24 acknowledged the god Chemosh, the Ammonite deity, providing land for his patrons while they (the Israelites) acknowledged Yahweh as being THEIR god and the god who provided their boundaries. There was a clear understanding that the respective gods worked on behalf of their people and there was NO surprise there.
This is another clear window into the patron deity worldview, although the interesting thing here is that Chemosh is wrongly attributed to the Ammonites. Chemosh was the Moabite deity. This likely stems from the Bible's characterization of the Ammonites as descended from Lot, just like the Moabites.
This is another clear window into the patron deity worldview, although the interesting thing here is that Chemosh is wrongly attributed to the Ammonites. Chemosh was the Moabite deity. This likely stems from the Bible's characterization of the Ammonites as descended from Lot, just like the Moabites.
Yes, I always found that mixup interesting. Molech was Amon's god and Chemosh belonged to Moab.
As I said though, this stuff is not the stuff of Sunday messages or Sunday school. This kind of information is an affront to the average Christian who could care less what the ancient Jews or Israelites believed. As long as they can bleed their modern day understanding into the Jewish scriptures, that is all that matters.
So glad I stumbled into this site looking for confirmation of the 3rd deity in the early Canaan pantheon trinity of Baal,YHWH& as the third deity (Asherah) had temporarily slipped my mind & finally found some people who have brains& know what they are talking about on the topic of religion& belief systems which usually provokes uneducated outbursts or demands to not think anything through & just 'have faith my son'-yeah right!! Great to read your posts regarding the subject & looking forward to researching more of my own material on the subject of the three desert religions where water ritual is involved in all& considering how precious water is in arid regions it is no wonder that Baal was worshiped well before YHWH as Baal was related to Zeus in that both were foremost in a Pantheon of weather gods. I really agree with 'insaneinthemembranes' & Daniel McClellan's comments above& love the sources to dissect myself as I love checking source material due to misinturpretations.
Insaneinthemembrane was although quoted by someone who unsuccessfully tried to put his commentary down,an obviously fundamentally minded person or three are on this page as well as the scholars,it's a great blog for me as I have already done a high level 3year study on the unknown& preferably kept secret aspects of biblical studies in regards to fiddling the books into a New Testament bible at the council of Nieca in 325Ad BY Constantine who actually remained a Mithras worshiper(The Zoroastrian angelic divinity of covenant&oath Yazata ,mystery cult of the Roman legions) till he converted on his deathbed "Incase the Christians were right" Mithra had a lot of similarities with Jesus,his birthday was December the 25th &was crucified dead for 3days resurrected& performed miracles & tied in with Sol Inviticus. Both Christ & Mithra were solar deities! This is why Constantine found it so easy to worship both Mithra was also deemed to be of virgin birth so who was plagiarized & Mithra along with *1)her deities were before Christ & replica's of the attributes given to Christ! I bet I get hell for these observations but don't believe me research what I say& make up your own mind 1)Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors 2)[url=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html]Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors[/url]
Originally Posted by Daniel O. McClellan
Does he or does he not state that he was not known by the name Yhwh to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Here's the relevant verse:
Exod 6:3: "And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name Yhwh I was not known to them."
Of course, this directly and unquestionably conflicts with the numerous instances in Genesis where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob directly appeal to the name Yhwh
One could read Exodus 6:3 and conclude that the ancient patriarchs were unaware of God's name thereby contradicting what other verses particularly in Genesis indicate. However one could also understand from those scriptures in Genesis that "to know" God means more than just knowing his personal name and that would resolve the seeming contradiction that Exodus 6:3 poses.
In ancient times names had meaning so there was more to knowing a person than knowing their name. For example, Abraham means "father of many" however his name was changed by God from Abram and when God changed Abram to Abraham he had only one son Ishmael. So people would not have really "known" Abraham as "the father of many" at the time of him having only Ishmael.
Let's consider God's name YHWH (or Jehovah or Yahweh or a derivative thereof...the points and counterpoints would be numbing) what does it mean? Scholars debate what verb the tetragrammaton is associated with but one such Hebrew verb is Ha wah which means "to be" or "to become" or "he causes to become." That may not sound significant until you put some thinking into it and understand that this actually fits God as the creator of everything and that what he purposes and promises will be fulfilled.Thus if you experienced a promise or purpose fulfilled by YHWH it could be said you have come to know YHWH even if you already knew his name as YHWH.
So Exodus 6:3 could well contradict what other scriptures state but I certainly wouldn't be dogmatic about that as it could very well mean that God had not revealed himself fully in the capacity of YHWH to those patriarchs. Yes they received promises and knew his personal name YHWH but they did not experience YHWH as the fulfiller of those promises since that came later. Thus it could be said "but by my name YHWH I was not known to them."
So glad I stumbled into this site looking for confirmation of the 3rd deity in the early Canaan pantheon trinity of Baal,YHWH& as the third deity (Asherah) had temporarily slipped my mind & finally found some people who have brains& know what they are talking about on the topic of religion& belief systems which usually provokes uneducated outbursts or demands to not think anything through & just 'have faith my son'-yeah right!! Great to read your posts regarding the subject & looking forward to researching more of my own material on the subject of the three desert religions where water ritual is involved in all& considering how precious water is in arid regions it is no wonder that Baal was worshiped well before YHWH as Baal was related to Zeus in that both were foremost in a Pantheon of weather gods. I really agree with 'insaneinthemembranes' & Daniel McClellan's comments above& love the sources to dissect myself as I love checking source material due to misinturpretations.
Insaneinthemembrane was although quoted by someone who unsuccessfully tried to put his commentary down,an obviously fundamentally minded person or three are on this page as well as the scholars,it's a great blog for me as I have already done a high level 3year study on the unknown& preferably kept secret aspects of biblical studies in regards to fiddling the books into a New Testament bible at the council of Nieca in 325Ad BY Constantine who actually remained a Mithras worshiper(The Zoroastrian angelic divinity of covenant&oath Yazata ,mystery cult of the Roman legions) till he converted on his deathbed "Incase the Christians were right" Mithra had a lot of similarities with Jesus,his birthday was December the 25th &was crucified dead for 3days resurrected& performed miracles & tied in with Sol Inviticus. Both Christ & Mithra were solar deities! This is why Constantine found it so easy to worship both Mithra was also deemed to be of virgin birth so who was plagiarized & Mithra along with *1)her deities were before Christ & replica's of the attributes given to Christ! I bet I get hell for these observations but don't believe me research what I say& make up your own mind 1)Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors 2)Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors
I guess YHWH must have been in solid idol form at one time ....... I remember reading that he was taken from the Israelites in battle, but I don't remember chapter and verse. It was that time when he gave a plague to the Midianites or whomever, and they felt they had to release him or all get sick and die.
Does he or does he not state that he was not known by the name Yhwh to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Here's the relevant verse:
Of course, this directly and unquestionably conflicts with the numerous instances in Genesis where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob directly appeal to the name Yhwh:
And then we have Gen 4:26:
I'm sure this will turn out just the same as every one of the hundreds of other times I've been through this: you will regress to simply asserting that it's not an error, just because you say so.
And Abraham planted a tamarisk-tree in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God.
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1)Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors 2)[url=http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html]Kersey Graves and The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors[/url]
