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Originally Posted by pensivesedition
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finished
Ok Tricky. I think there is no point for me to continue the conversation because there is deep lack of knowledge regarding Christianity and it is hard discussing something when the information is somewhat skewed and when there is no interest in understanding someone else's beliefs.
There you go again. Because I don't agree with Christianity you believe that my understanding therefore must be skewed or that I have no interest in understanding someone else's belief.
Your reasoning behind this is that if I would understand it I could only agree. Since I do not agree I must obviously not understand it.
Another thing is that I understand Nietzsche as well as Christianity because I have suffered from a depression. To me nihilism and depression are one and the same.
The only reason I survived that depression is because I would not let my parents go through the experience of outliving 1 of their children.
No matter how depressed I was I would not do this to the people I love the most on this whole wide world.
I guess I must love my parents more than myself huh?
They only gave me a reason not to kill myself and from there I had to find my own reason for continuing to live.
But God is indeed dead, because he never spoke to me.
Not even in my darkest hour.
Yet I know love exists. So I believe that God=Love and I believe that Jesus is very important, but I do not believe that Jesus is God.
Nor do I believe in an after life.
[quote=Tricky D;1780931]Originally Posted by pensivesedition
There you go again. Because I don't agree with Christianity you believe that my understanding therefore must be skewed or that I have no interest in understanding someone else's belief. No, its not because of that. I believe this kind of interaction is to challenge and be challenged by the thinking of others. You yourself admitted that that is not necesarily the case, and thus, that is where the purpose of this ends. I am sure you will do well without my posts.
Your reasoning behind this is that if I would understand it I could only agree. Since I do not agree I must obviously not understand it.
No, that is not true. I have had conversations with people who have a trhough understanding of Christianity and are not christians and yet, we can have pretty decent conversations and come to a better understanding of things that are true and question those that are questionable. We can agree to disagree. After all, believing in God takes faith, not believing in God takes faith too. But the arguments you put forward are not from a person that understand christian theology and meaning quite yet. You keep going back to the same points and disregard concepts that have been brought up to the conversation. Some of those concepts have are related with what an academic would consider relevant-eg. in historical studies it is widely known that in order to understand cultural values one has to examine the millieu in which those values took place. You take into account ifluence, practice, social conditions etc... when we talked about slavery, I explained this to you, but you disregarded it. Then you contradict yourself constantly in the same principle- christians are supposed to be differet (be like Jesus) but christians are evil. I think it is hard for you tu understand the diffence between the philosophy and the nature of humans. Do you think Christians dont know we suck?? we do know it. But christians are not christians because of christians. That is not what keeps us going. In fact, shortly after I became a christian I began to question christianity precisly because of my christian brothers (and i say brothers here intentionally, not because gender group definitions are male by default in my first language). I went into this long search for truth. Because that is what I wanted. Truth, if that truth existed. It took me 5 years of University and long nights of strugglign and debates with as many worldviews I could find to disprove it and I ende up in the same spot. Believe me, I tried to resist it. I dont even come from a christian background, and if any, a very poor one. People think that being a christian is easy and that we live in this realm of bliss where we think nothing will happen cause God has it in control. It is not like that. Christians are constantly discriminated and these forums are proof of that. Yes, I know it looks like sometimes we deserve it. And no ...we dont think or feel that life is dandy because everthing is under God's control. We contantly wrestle with these ideas and doubts. Christianity is a matter of faith, and faith is not easy. Even within christian circles I question everything I hear, because that is the way I am, that is what the bible teaches, and because I know God is not afraid of my questions. It took me a while to understand that if I was going to hold christian beliefs (and this was very much a concious choice on my part) I could not go around judging the behaviour of my brothers and sisters, the bible talks about this very seriously. And so your arguments keep going back to the same thing. Christian behaviour, not christian philosophy and thus the conversation becomes a vicious circle because we are just constantly touching only the surface. And that argument bothers me, not because there is no truth in it, but because of the double standard. I have mentioned this in previous posts- people measure christianity by a totally different standard than they measure everyone and everything else. Christians are not allowed to act human-like, only non christians can make mistakes. I keep pointing out that Christian morals do not support unloving behaviour, but you keep going back to Christianity being the reason why people behave inproperly. I keep defending, you keep accusing. Therefore, it is obvious that this is not a chat to get a deeper understanding of things, and that, my friend renders the interaction futile.
Another thing is that I understand Nietzsche as well as Christianity because I have suffered from a depression. To me nihilism and depression are one and the same.
The only reason I survived that depression is because I would not let my parents go through the experience of outliving 1 of their children.
I am sorry to read this Tricky. I know you didnt say it to for me to confort you so I wont, though my christian side compells it . I do know what you are talking about, because I have gone trhough similar states in my life. I have had times when I have thought that I am definetly insane because I fail to understand the world as most people do. I look at people who do not think about the things I think about and quite frankly, I envy them. Several times I thought about leaving in any way possible. You might find this surprising but, I do in fact find nihilism quite appealing. I think therefore I am....so if I stop being, I will stop thinking....I was intrigued by the math.
I guess I must love my parents more than myself huh?
They only gave me a reason not to kill myself and from there I had to find my own reason for continuing to live. I know what you are saying. I have gone trhough my fair bit of grief too, and like you, I saw other people in my life too valuable for me to be so selfish.
But God is indeed dead, because he never spoke to me.
Not even in my darkest hour. And this is why I believe He exists. He spoke to me not trhough angels, but trhough people, and he did in fact give me a reason to live. Not because of fear of hell, as grace is granted if you accept it, but because of who he is. Although I do believe that the case for God would stand any court of law, faith is still the determining factor here. And I have chosen to put my faith not only in the safest part of the grid, but also in the most rewarding. If the Christian God is an idea.... gosh...what a a lovely idea. The one that came up with it was definetly a genius.
quote] Sorry... I think i did it wrong again. And sorry it is so long again!!
Then you contradict yourself constantly in the same principle- christians are supposed to be differet (be like Jesus) but christians are evil.
I never said that Christians are evil. I wrote Christians do evil, but believe that they are doing good. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Most Christians travel on this road, but they believe otherwise because they have good intentions.
The fact that they do not question the affects of their good intention is what causes them to travel on the road to hell. Christians mostly value ideology (their religion) over reality.
So I did not contradict myself.
How else can you explain to me that the pope advices Africans not to use condoms? This advice will not help stopping the spread of the AIDS disease in Africa (or anywhere else).
Obviously the pope regards religion more important than his religious followers. In other words the pope values saving souls over saving lives.
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I think it is hard for you tu understand the diffence between the philosophy and the nature of humans.
I have no trouble understanding the difference between idealism and reality. But unlike Christians (idealists) I am a pragmatist. I value reality over ideology (or religion). This is why I find the pope’s advice evil. I find saving lives more important than religion. This is why I am a pragmatist and not a religious idealist.
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It took me 5 years of University and long nights of strugglign and debates with as many worldviews I could find to disprove it and I ende up in the same spot.
I found truth within myself.
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Christian behaviour, not christian philosophy and thus the conversation becomes a vicious circle because we are just constantly touching only the surface.
The truth I found is that you are what you do, not what you believe.
Example: I don't care how much a husband thinks that he loves his wife, but if doesn't mind abusing her sexually, physiologically or emotionally, I can say that he does not love his wife…he probably never did.
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Christians are constantly discriminated and these forums are proof of that.
Being different automatically means you are in the minority. Being a minority is more difficult than being a Christian. Last time I checked Christianity is the number 1 religion so when you are in a Christian country you cannot claim to be in the minority, unless you're a minority in the Christian community itself.
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I could not go around judging the behaviour of my brothers and sisters, the bible talks about this very seriously.
As long as I have evidence to whatever I claim I have no problem judging others.
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And that argument bothers me, not because there is no truth in it, but because of the double standard. I have mentioned this in previous posts- people measure christianity by a totally different standard than they measure everyone and everything else.
I judge others the same way I judge myself. So I have no double standard. At least not that I am aware of it.
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If the Christian God is an idea.... gosh...what a a lovely idea. The one that came up with it was definetly a genius.
In this we agree I treat God as an idea and not as a heavenly father.
I can see God as a non-deity while Christians can't because that would be blasphemy. So I have no trouble choosing reality over the bible.
Tricky...name me times when God interviened..? Did God intervein when priests burned thousands of women on the stakes calling them witches?
Did God Intervien when Hitler killed all those Jews?
Did God Intervien when Katrina hit New Orleans....
God puts us here...he doesn't wave a magick wand and make things better. God gives us choice...and it is by our choices we either suffer or prosper....we choose...and if we kill, God doesn't intervein....
God gave man the gift of life...but that is where it stops...if it were not true, we would not possess free will. What we possess is conditioning, handed down from the beginning of man kind, which could very well be wrong
You are told to pray to God to change things...but He isn't going to change anything...YOU are the one with the power to change things....you are the one that picks your destiny, and lives your life the way you choose.
i remember reading about how god laid waste to soddom and gomorah, he flooded the earth, he told moses to kill all but the virgin women of a neighboring tribe. it seems to me that god does intervene...
Originally Posted by jinxor Is it impossible for God to change (or grow)?
In Christian doctrine, I believe that God is immutable and unchanging.
In Malachi 3:6 it is written, "I am the Lord, I change not."
In Hebrews 13:8 it is written, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
In Christian doctrine, I believe that God is immutable and unchanging.
In Malachi 3:6 it is written, "I am the Lord, I change not."
In Hebrews 13:8 it is written, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."
I just don't see why Jesus had to sacrifice himself in order for God to have a change of heart and forgive everyone things he would not do so before Jesus' sacrifice.
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Christians mostly value ideology (their religion) over reality.
At least not that I am aware of it.
So I have no trouble choosing reality over the bible.
