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Old 01-26-2013, 07:16 AM
 
4,653 posts, read 3,312,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Objectively:

1) the government action must have a secular purpose; What secular purpose is there for removing ANY picture in a PUBLIC school where freedom of speech and freedom of religious expression is taught?
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion; How is the use of the establishment clause as the secular purpose NOT intended to inhibit religion or religious speech in a PUBLIC venue?
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion. How is involving government in preventing the display of religious iconography in the PUBLIC square NOT excessive entanglement.
If you're actually interested in finding the answers to these questions, you could read the court's decisions. Let us know what specific objections you have to their reasoning.

 
Old 01-26-2013, 11:59 AM
 
9,637 posts, read 6,570,633 times
Reputation: 7732
Jesus VS Constitution In Jackson (now with video!) » The Digital Cuttlefish



Group To School: Jesus Must Go Part 2 - YouTube

Quote:
It really does feel like Cranston all over again (and if there are any folks from Jackson who make their way here, I highly recommend following that link and looking through the Cranston story. It might save you a lot of time and money). There is the helpful advice to anyone offended to just turn their head and not look (Oh, no! A crime is being committed–quick, look away!); there are the two or three brave people standing up to the hundreds who literally try to shout them down; there is the superintendent who claims never to have heard any complaints about the picture (having slept through those who spoke at the meeting, apparently); there are the complaints about an outside agency (FFRF) from Minnesota sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong (but no complaints about the Liberty Institute from Texas coming to their defense, and not much mention of the ACLU of Ohio, who are local and opposed to the portrait); there are claims of “freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion” (while in the comments, a Christian wants the picture down because it violates the commandment forbidding graven images).
Cranston link
Cranston Cliff-Notes » The Digital Cuttlefish
 
Old 01-31-2013, 10:58 PM
 
3,194 posts, read 1,289,881 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Not at all. As I said ANY indication that you are the outsider in a wider group is going to send a message and have an effect. It would be naive to think otherwise. An institution declaring its affiliation or favoritism towards one religion in this fashion is therefore going to send a message and have an effect on anyone who does not subscribe to that religion.

Some ways of sending that message are more subtle than others. That does not mean their effects are non existent. An institution flying christian symbols is openly declaring itself to be a christian institution and while it may accept non Christians it is clearly giving the message they are the exception or the outsider.

And as I said there is research galore showing how desperately the majority of our species do not want to be seen as the outsider or the exception.
Hey Nozz...How "subtle" a "way of sending that message" was this?: Year of the Bible, Public Law 97-280

See...regardless of what the "documents" say it is theoretically supposed to be...the U.S. (since the hostile takeover from the indigenous people) has had a "Separation of Church and State" that is about at the level of what something like these Proclamations would indicate. In other words...none at all.

Some picture of Jesus in a rural Ohio middle-school is like a "third-rate club fighter" compared to the "Undisputed World Champion"...relative to what the Top-Level political officials do to promote religion through the government.
OTOH...those "third-rate club fighters" are about all an insignificant and weak challenger like Atheism can handle. That's why they don't go after the "Top-Level" guys.
MOF...I won't be surprised if this "third-rate club fighter" (that picture of Jesus in the school) ends up knocking out the "challenger" (the FFRF) in this "fight".
 
Old 02-01-2013, 01:33 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 1,564,032 times
Reputation: 1675
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Hey Nozz
Oh hey. I was assuming I was on ignore given your total run away and ignore of my reply to your false claims about evolution the other day. Good to see I am still on your radar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
See...regardless of what the "documents" say it is theoretically supposed to be...the U.S. (since the hostile takeover from the indigenous people) has had a "Separation of Church and State" that is about at the level of what something like these Proclamations would indicate. In other words...none at all.
1983 is awhile ago now and I am not sure what your point is. However if your point is that Jeffersons wall of separation has holes in it or has in some parts fallen down completely then I do not disagree with the point that the separation of church and state is an ongoing fight that is far from being won yet. Nor do I expect it to be won... by either side.... for some generations yet.
 
Old 02-01-2013, 03:12 AM
 
3,194 posts, read 1,289,881 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Oh hey. I was assuming I was on ignore given your total run away and ignore of my reply to your false claims about evolution the other day. Good to see I am still on your radar.

1983 is awhile ago now and I am not sure what your point is. However if your point is that Jeffersons wall of separation has holes in it or has in some parts fallen down completely then I do not disagree with the point that the separation of church and state is an ongoing fight that is far from being won yet. Nor do I expect it to be won... by either side.... for some generations yet.
Moderator cut: deleted: discussing moderation

Anyway...how can you not see the point?
It goes way beyond Jeffersons' wall simply having "holes in it". I'm trying to show you that what they wrote in those "documents" was just typical political diversion.
For some reason, all you have to do is write down what people want to hear, then declare it the law...and they are happy with that. They actually seem to think that makes it so.
Bible Literalists do the same..."See?...it's written right here!".
Then, you can actually go and do the exact opposite of what you wrote...and they don't much seem to care...or even really notice.
The point I'm making is...There NEVER was a wall! All there ever was is some writing on some "documents" saying there would be...to placate the masses...while they ran their ACTUAL game.
It worked great then...and it is still working pretty good. Oh...they grease the squeakiest wheels every now and then...and "toss them a crumb"...an insignificant win (like that picture) here or there. But they still run their main game right out in the open...and couldn't care less what the "documents" say. They never did...and they never will.
Until the people that are in power prefer it differently, it won't change...they do whatever they please.

But now I have to go to the other thread and note that the U.S. Government "proclaimed" and "declared" that the Bible was Divine. LOL.

Last edited by june 7th; 02-01-2013 at 01:22 PM..
 
Old 02-01-2013, 04:38 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 1,564,032 times
Reputation: 1675
Yea Yea. Not the first time you have claimed a post is/was there that is not there at all. If you can not retort against my post showing your errors then that is fine. No one expects you to. But do not make up posts that do not exist to try and pretend you could. Also if you think peppering posts with feux 70s Jive speak makes them "High Octane" then you really should consider starting your own Atheist Society and see what "High Octane" reprisals really read like.

Back to the topic of THIS thread however. My point was only that giving any sign that a person is "outside the main group" will have an effect on that person. I was making no more point than that. It was in reply to a person who opined that such things have no effect and send no message.

As such I am not sure what this rant about "seperation of church and state" actually has to do with me as it does not address my point at all. It seems you had something to say and just randomly replied to a post on the thread in order to say it.

But to repeat I do know that the separation needs a lot of work and is very far from complete and people are trying every little weasely way to bypass it that they can. All we can do is hope the many organisations doing great work against them will prevail in the end. Neither side will, in my expectation, for many generations to come however.
 
Old 02-01-2013, 10:03 AM
 
3,194 posts, read 1,289,881 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Yea Yea. Not the first time you have claimed a post is/was there that is not there at all. If you can not retort against my post showing your errors then that is fine. No one expects you to. But do not make up posts that do not exist to try and pretend you could. Also if you think peppering posts with feux 70s Jive speak makes them "High Octane" then you really should consider starting your own Atheist Society and see what "High Octane" reprisals really read like.

Back to the topic of THIS thread however. My point was only that giving any sign that a person is "outside the main group" will have an effect on that person. I was making no more point than that. It was in reply to a person who opined that such things have no effect and send no message.

As such I am not sure what this rant about "seperation of church and state" actually has to do with me as it does not address my point at all. It seems you had something to say and just randomly replied to a post on the thread in order to say it.

But to repeat I do know that the separation needs a lot of work and is very far from complete and people are trying every little weasely way to bypass it that they can. All we can do is hope the many organisations doing great work against them will prevail in the end. Neither side will, in my expectation, for many generations to come however.
Posts are put up...then are deleted for one reason or another. That's a fact you already know.
If I note a post that is then subsequently taken down...and you refuse to believe it was ever there...that is on you.
I don't say posts existed that I know never did. I've noted posts that have, in fact, existed...that have been removed and are no longer there.
AGAIN...If you don't believe me when I tell you...that is your issue, and your issue alone. And only serves to inform me that there is something else I knew/know that you don't.

And what is this "neither side will win" stuff?!
Here's the REALITY Nozz...The blatant (not "weasely") promotion of religion in general (and Christianity specifically) by the U.S. Government has "prevailed" over that ever-losing "separation", and still does. "Promotion of Religion by the Government" is the "Reigning and Defending ***CHAAAAAAAAM-PI-OOOOOOON***"... "Separation" is the third-rate club fighter with a losing record, and has never been anything but.
How it will turn out "in the end" remains to be seen...that's true. But all that means is that "Separation" will continue to get trounced overall, like it ALWAYS has, "for many generations to come".
I know you don't like that REALITY...but that IS just the way it IS.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 08:56 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 1,564,032 times
Reputation: 1675
All I know is that I see you claim often that posts exist and then it turns out they do not. If you can not answer my correction of your evolution post then so be it. I hope you learned something from it this time.

I never said "neither side will win". Go back and read it again. I said victory will not be within our life time or possibly not for many generations. That is very different to saying it will never happen. If you can not reply to what I actually said I do not know why you reply at all.
 
Old 02-02-2013, 10:54 PM
 
3,194 posts, read 1,289,881 times
Reputation: 380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
All I know is that I see you claim often that posts exist and then it turns out they do not. If you can not answer my correction of your evolution post then so be it. I hope you learned something from it this time.

I never said "neither side will win". Go back and read it again. I said victory will not be within our life time or possibly not for many generations. That is very different to saying it will never happen. If you can not reply to what I actually said I do not know why you reply at all.
It almost seems like if I noted any of my bunch of posts from the other thread that are gone (others too)...that you know were there because you had responded to them...you still wouldn't acknowledge they existed because they aren't there now.
Cut the kiddie stuff---"Where?! What post?! I don't see any post!!" Posts get axed...that's the way it is. And if I can't relate the content of a post that has been removed...with a decent certainty that you will be reasonable enough to accept that I am being forthright about it...then that pretty much puts the whammy on the exchange.
So...it's up to you.

And, I'm very sorry...didn't know you wouldn't understand I was referring to the whole by just quoting the opening. Even though it's something very common in discussion.
Like saying: "You know how it goes, *Do unto others*?".
Most would know one is referring to the whole saying...even though they just used the opening.
Didn't know you wouldn't "get" that. Should I make allowances for it in the future?

What's the deal with no matter who debates you...you claim they, "didn't answer your question", or are "unable to answer you"? When it is clear they did...but since it was in the form of a differing view than the one you hold...you claim they didn't. I don't know what's up with that, but you keep making those claims over, and over, and over, and over again. It might be a reading comp issue with YOU...that you just don't realize...because of your comp issue. Or...it could just be a diversionary tactic.


What I was noting...was that it wasn't reasonable to say "Neither side will win"...concerning two entities whereby one of them has not only already won, but has been "The Champ" for over 200 years.
Separation has always gotten trounced, and has NEVER been much of nuthin'...and the Government has always been cloaked in religion, and freely exuded it.
Theism/Religion has dominated the U.S Arena for a couple centuries now...the society, and the government.
Sorta like the way Theism has won over Atheism in the World Arena for all of human history.
If it was seen as an election...Theism/Religion would win over Separation/Pedigree Secularism in the biggest landslide EVER.

So, "Separation" can fight against that Jesus picture in the little rural school...since the best it can do is contest against an opponent that insignificant, if it is to have any hope of winning. And it may STILL lose...even against that low-level competition!
 
Old 02-04-2013, 01:11 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 1,564,032 times
Reputation: 1675
Calling it "kiddie stuff" does not change the fact that all I know is that you often claim the existence of posts that do not appear to exist. My post correcting your evolutionary errors is still there if you want to reply to it. Making excuses for not replying to it however does nothing.

I know it is not reasonable to say "Neither side will win". That is why I never said it. I said something else. It might be better if you reply to what I said instead of what I did not say.
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