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I haven't forgotten about this, I found one place in the Talmud that speaks of it somewhat, but from all I have read from all the people looking into the writings of the Rabbis speak of the silence after the incense is offered as common knowledge and the act itself should cause silence if one had an opinion that the prayers of that incense IS the language being transferred through the smoke of that incense from the alter and so it would be a good opinion based upon that alone that silence would be viewed in prayer, especially for the nation on Yom Kippur, the entire nation should be silent, the entire world.
I love Edershiem and his Temple book which speaks of it, along with other things he wrote that I doubt Jews would read, but what he gathers is from the traditions that were kept in the Temple, from Rabbis.
I looked at it for about an hour yesterday and I just had started on the incense of Passover and how tradition teaches silence.
Just saying,'' I am still looking and then I will give every quote I can find, I found one so far.''
Amen. Here is a longer description of the failure of certain Jews sponsored by
Julian the Apostate to rebuild the temple. Better for those who survived
and converted, even if it took a miracle.
This lists nothing as it is a link to the actual book which is taken out of the context of the actual writer of the book. What you are quoting is a snippit that the author quoting a Christian revisionist version. Without the full context of the actual chapter of the book, the snippit is not representative of Judaism.
Quote:
The second selection describes the work of the actual building of the Temple. It is very probable that it was not so much an earthquake, as Church historians say, but the death of Julian in 363 and the coming into power again of a Christian emperor that finally put an end to this project. (Some modern historians believc-without sufficient ground, in our opinion-that the work on the Temple was never even begun, and look upon the account as a fable.) The story of this attempted rebuilding of the Temple is found in the Ecclesiastical History written in Greek by Salamanius Hermias Sozomenus about 443-450. Sozomen was a native Palestinian and claimed to have his knowledge from eye-witnesses. He was a conservative Christian without sympathy for the Jews or for Julian.
Our Sages teach, "Wine and spice lead to wisdom."Shimon his son says: All my days I have been raised among scholars, and I found nothing better for the body than silence…. (Avot 1:17)
The respective roles of the body (silence) and the soul (spiritual leadership) are indicated in a beautiful comment of the Sages regarding divine service in the Holy Temple.
Let us assume that wine, the source of so much material pleasure, symbolized the body, and incense (which is inhaled but never consumed) symbolized the soul. How appropriate then that the wine used for libation offerings was prepared in an atmosphere of total silence, while the incense was formulated while the spice-makers spoke. (cg. Menachot 87a)
The material side of man…when properly channeled and successfully restrained can also play a significant and visible role….In this light we can better appreciate a rather difficult teaching of our Sages and perhaps also gain insight as to how wisdom may be acquired. We are told "wine and spices lead to wisdom" (Yoma 76a). This may refer to different methods of acquiring wisdom - through the subordination and silencing of the body, compared to wine, and by uplifting the soul, symbolized by incense.
It is also noteworthy that the roles of wine and incense in the Holy Temple were reversed once the preparatory phase had been completed. At that point, wine was poured alongside the Altar amidst the loud and joyous singing of the Levites, while the incense (especially during the Yom Kippur service) was offered in the total silence and seclusion of the Holy of Holies.
Our Sages teach, "Wine and spice lead to wisdom."Shimon his son says: All my days I have been raised among scholars, and I found nothing better for the body than silence…. (Avot 1:17)
The respective roles of the body (silence) and the soul (spiritual leadership) are indicated in a beautiful comment of the Sages regarding divine service in the Holy Temple.
Let us assume that wine, the source of so much material pleasure, symbolized the body, and incense (which is inhaled but never consumed) symbolized the soul. How appropriate then that the wine used for libation offerings was prepared in an atmosphere of total silence, while the incense was formulated while the spice-makers spoke. (cg. Menachot 87a)
The material side of man…when properly channeled and successfully restrained can also play a significant and visible role….In this light we can better appreciate a rather difficult teaching of our Sages and perhaps also gain insight as to how wisdom may be acquired. We are told "wine and spices lead to wisdom" (Yoma 76a). This may refer to different methods of acquiring wisdom - through the subordination and silencing of the body, compared to wine, and by uplifting the soul, symbolized by incense.
It is also noteworthy that the roles of wine and incense in the Holy Temple were reversed once the preparatory phase had been completed. At that point, wine was poured alongside the Altar amidst the loud and joyous singing of the Levites, while the incense (especially during the Yom Kippur service) was offered in the total silence and seclusion of the Holy of Holies.
Incense was offered in silence, yes. But the claim was about 30 minutes of silence afterwards. As I stated, there was speech when the incense was made (the words "heteiv hedek, hedek heteiv").
Incense was offered in silence, yes. But the claim was about 30 minutes of silence afterwards. As I stated, there was speech when the incense was made (the words "heteiv hedek, hedek heteiv").
Speech while it was being made but pure silence and that for the entire nation of Israel as the incense is offered and then what happens?
The entire nation is silent as that Priest has offered the incense before he can enter the holy of holies and as he is walking in the sound of bells, the whole nation is silent as he enters, how long would the priest have been in there?
Last edited by Hannibal Flavius; 10-27-2016 at 01:49 PM..
Speech while it was being made but pure silence and that for the entire nation of Israel as the incense is offered and then what happens?
The entire nation is silent as that Priest has offered the incense before he can enter the holy of holies and as he is walking in the sound of bells, the whole nation is silent as he enters, how long would the priest have been in there?
Where does it say that all the people were silent when he entered and when the incense was offered? The priest walked in and out a number of times and prayers were said in between. What does the talmud say about when they were silent?
Where does it say that all the people were silent when he entered and when the incense was offered? The priest walked in and out a number of times and prayers were said in between. What does the talmud say about when they were silent?
Yes, and this site offers the following statement:
Quote:
The Zohar (3:177b) says: "The Cohanim work quietly and in secret. This is why they are able to assist Israel in atoning for their sins [which are usually done in secret]. With what [do they effect atonement]? With the Qetoret , which is offered in silence..." This is consistent with the tradition recorded in the Talmud (Arachin 16a) that the Qetoret atones for lashon hara (slander and evil speech), as it is written, "The entire congregation of the children of Israel began to complain to Moses, saying, 'You have killed G-d's people!'... He [Aaron] offered the Qetoret to atone for the people" (Numbers 17:6, 17:12). The Talmud thus says: Let [the Qetoret ] that is offered in secret come and atone for [their lashon hara] that was spoken in secret.
So it is the Zohar which records that the offering was done in silence. Nothing from the talmud and nothing that says that the people were silent and nothing that indicates 30 minutes of silence afterwards.
This lists nothing as it is a link to the actual book which is taken out of the context of the actual writer of the book. What you are quoting is a snippit that the author quoting a Christian revisionist version. Without the full context of the actual chapter of the book, the snippit is not representative of Judaism.
That was a good link because it directly quotes Sozomen, but
there are more links on the failed attempt to rebuild the Temple.
It was very controversial idea. Julian's favorability and sponsorship
is the only thing that made it possible. I don't think an exhaustive
study of this can be done online.
Have you heard of Simon ben Eliezer's warning not to rebuild ?
I am not claiming that Sozomen, Chrysostomom's or
Gregory Nazienzus's accounts are totally true, although I won't rule out that
possibility; there were earthquakes in Galilee in 363.
It's just an interesting event, that confirms, in light of the subject matter in this thread.
btw when I started this thread I put it in the Christianity subforum, but it was
moved by the mods.
Yes, and this site offers the following statement:
So it is the Zohar which records that the offering was done in silence. Nothing from the talmud and nothing that says that the people were silent and nothing that indicates 30 minutes of silence afterwards.
LOL, My bad.
If you asked me if the Zohar was in the Talmud, I would have said yes. I don't know the Talmud but I try and search out all the Jewish writers and I assumed it was in the Talmud, either way, you have to search Jewish tradition to find out what is being done on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur cause it isn't in the bible and yet there is a great deal of Jewish tradition in the New Testament that can't be understood from the bible alone.
I did find something, just trying to find it again, I have to read through a whole bunch of stuff, but everything I have learned has come from Jewish writings, non biblical Jewish traditions.
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