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Old 10-31-2007, 10:56 PM
 
158 posts, read 315,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
But Florida,
Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer, etc are exceptions, not the rules. You go for the exceptions to state your case. You could have added Son of Sam and the Boston Strangler. Who knows what their moral values are? Yes, to some people, morals, either their own or those from god, are meaningless. Do you actually believe that Bundy, Son of Sam, or Dahmer ever gave morals a thought? These people functioned outside of socially accepted norms, probably because they had some sort of pyschological problems, not a matter of morals.
Adolph Hitler, he was a believer in god. We all know how good he was.
I wonder if the upper management of Enron were good, god fearing people, who lived according to morals. I wonder about the morals of the group from Blackwater that is currently functioning in Iraq. In the good ole days in the god fearing Bible Belt, lynching (after bearing false witness) of blacks was a social event with many spectators. I'll bet all those people went to church on Sunday.
Don't kid yourself, religion, belief in god and his morals have never hindered lying, cheating, bearing false witness, mistreating people, and violence. Just ask George W. Bush.
Between the lip service of god's morals and the applications is a canyon wide credibility gap.
Yes indeed. Those are exceptions to the rules. It was intentional. I chose a few of the most vile and depraved individuals. The reason being is that by doing so is to paint a clear picture. These people are no different in God's mind than an atheist, a little white liar, or the basic goody 2 shoes. Apart from God, we're all evil. This is a fact that seems so hard for people to wrap their brains around. We're all sinners. We, as humans, love to compare ourselves to others. "Well, look at Joe Blow down the street. I'm not nearly as bad as him!" "See Jane Doe over there? She's slept with everybody on this block!" "Oh no! Here comes John Doe, the neighborhood pedophile!" Somehow it seems to alleviate or remove themselves from the spotlight. It's called pride, the "worst" of sins, according to God. Pride is responsible for all sorts of evils in this world. Do I think pedophiles should go unpunished? Certainly not! While God sees sin as sin because all of it no matter "little" or how "big" those sins are, they are all enough to keep us out of heaven apart from the saving power of Jesus--the ultimate sarificial lamb for us all! However, here on Earth, sure, certain sins do carry more of a severe outcome and consequence than others therefore we punish accordingly. But that's human to human. Human to God, we're all depraved and rotten to the core--ate up by sin. Jesus loves Westerfield just as much as Mother Theresa, Jeffrey Dahmer as much as Princess Diana. God loves all equally. We may can't and want to point the finger, but that in itself is a sin of pride. Pride says, "I'm better than you....!" But, atheist or theist, God loves all in spite of ourselves and Jesus died for you as well.
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Old 10-31-2007, 11:02 PM
 
158 posts, read 315,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Florida, florida, florida...! June says with affection, not exassperation! (At least not yet...)

You are thinking in extremes. Look at the "examples" that you cite, above.

You have managed to point our attentions to a sociopath, (or two!) along with an antisocial personality disorder, a peodophile with borderline intelligence, along with a couple of truly psychotic, delusional individuals! The only one that comes the closest to "normal" is David Westerfield, and believe me, that's not saying much! Oh, and let's not forget that both Jim Jones and Charles Manson thought THEY were on a mission from god! (See where I'm going here?) Watch any number of the interviews that Manson has given, (or read the trail transcripts) and you will notice some striking parrallels between what you are saying about the ills and perils of society, and what Manson professed as well!

--And as for order being unable to arise from chaos: Let me assure you, it happens all the time. June's mind is a perfect example! (Meaning: God bless caffine!)

Take gentle care.
First of all these social disorders and sociopathic people are perfectly capable of choosing to kill or not kill. Nothing or nobody holds a gun to them making them commit such attrocities. Jones and Manson may quote scriptures and profess a belief in God, but theyare Satan worshipers whether they realize it or not. If you're not for God, you're against him. There is no straddling the fence, no lukewarmness, no in betweens. Just because someone professes belief and allegiance to God, doesn't make it so. These 2 individuals as well as many others twist, rearrange, and totally take the Bible out of context to fit their own warped sense of things. One can do this with a cook book if they wanted. Anybody can deconstruct scripture, rearrange it, reword it, connect dots that are no more connected to each other than cockroach to the space shuttle, but that doesn't make them Christians and Bible believers. True Christians, and true Bible believers would not adhere to such teachings or become such raving lunatics. But that goes back to one being a true believer or not.
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Old 11-01-2007, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,441 posts, read 8,467,249 times
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Speaking of pedophiles, one of the biggest scandals concerning pedophiles originated within a religious institution. The Catholic church apparently has a great problem. As the pedophile scandal was unfolding, the theme of morals wasn't even mentioned, this from an organization which preaches morals. Worse yet, the hierarchy of the church was revealed to be actively covering up for the pedophiles. And some of the top leaders (especially Boston's cardinal) was outright hostile and snotty toward the press when questioned about pedophiles.
How can such people preach to others about god's morals when they themselves obviously have little regard for god's morals?
I personally prefer secular laws over god's morals, because secular laws provide consequences for those who harm others. The religious organization provided cover instead. Surely, they must have known it was immoral, but that didn't stop them. Or do they believe that god looks the other way?
God's morals are worthless unless the people live by them.
For these people god's morals didn't stop them, it was the secular laws against pedophilia which did.
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Old 11-01-2007, 12:12 PM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 903,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
Speaking of pedophiles, one of the biggest scandals concerning pedophiles originated within a religious institution. The Catholic church apparently has a great problem. As the pedophile scandal was unfolding, the theme of morals wasn't even mentioned, this from an organization which preaches morals. Worse yet, the hierarchy of the church was revealed to be actively covering up for the pedophiles. And some of the top leaders (especially Boston's cardinal) was outright hostile and snotty toward the press when questioned about pedophiles.
How can such people preach to others about god's morals when they themselves obviously have little regard for god's morals?
I personally prefer secular laws over god's morals, because secular laws provide consequences for those who harm others. The religious organization provided cover instead. Surely, they must have known it was immoral, but that didn't stop them. Or do they believe that god looks the other way?
God's morals are worthless unless the people live by them.
For these people god's morals didn't stop them, it was the secular laws against pedophilia which did.
As an Atheist I take no pleasure in pointing out the weaknesses of Christian people, but, it is worth saying, that Canada, Ireland, Rome and the UK are among the countries where the hypocracy of the denial of child abuse has been practised by Christian leaders and this is shared by moralists from the US.
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Old 11-03-2007, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
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I guess by now that it is obvious that speaking of morals which are not in any way connected to anything sexual causes discomfort and great difficulty. Some didn't even comprehend the original post. Too deep in the religious fog.
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Old 11-03-2007, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Tetons, WY
5,553 posts, read 8,929,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
I guess by now that it is obvious that speaking of morals which are not in any way connected to anything sexual causes discomfort and great difficulty. Some didn't even comprehend the original post. Too deep in the religious fog.
It's ok visvaldis, no one responded to my last questions, either. I guess this thread has run its course.
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Old 11-04-2007, 01:31 PM
 
7,538 posts, read 4,874,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida southerner 3 View Post
First of all these social disorders and sociopathic people are perfectly capable of choosing to kill or not kill. Nothing or nobody holds a gun to them making them commit such attrocities. Jones and Manson may quote scriptures and profess a belief in God, but theyare Satan worshipers whether they realize it or not. If you're not for God, you're against him. There is no straddling the fence, no lukewarmness, no in betweens. Just because someone professes belief and allegiance to God, doesn't make it so. These 2 individuals as well as many others twist, rearrange, and totally take the Bible out of context to fit their own warped sense of things. One can do this with a cook book if they wanted. Anybody can deconstruct scripture, rearrange it, reword it, connect dots that are no more connected to each other than cockroach to the space shuttle, but that doesn't make them Christians and Bible believers. True Christians, and true Bible believers would not adhere to such teachings or become such raving lunatics. But that goes back to one being a true believer or not.
Perhaps Manson is the "true" believer, and y'all got it wrong? I mean, how would anyone know? I, as an objective observer, see a multitude of folk each claiming a grip on "truth," and discrediting others who don't hold identical beliefs as being "false" Christians. To this objective observer, I have no method of determining who it "true" and who is "false."

To me, it seems to be nothing more than a convenient rationalization when one discredits another based on whatever that person wishes to disassociate from.

As far as I can see, in a religion where faith alone is paramount, when one proclaims such a faith, y'all are stuck with him.
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Old 11-04-2007, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
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Currently (Nov 4), there is another thread - "Has America Turned Its Back On God" - that is a perfect example of my original posting in this thread.
American morals = sexual behavior.
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Old 11-05-2007, 03:45 PM
 
158 posts, read 315,361 times
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Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
Perhaps Manson is the "true" believer, and y'all got it wrong? I mean, how would anyone know? I, as an objective observer, see a multitude of folk each claiming a grip on "truth," and discrediting others who don't hold identical beliefs as being "false" Christians. To this objective observer, I have no method of determining who it "true" and who is "false."

To me, it seems to be nothing more than a convenient rationalization when one discredits another based on whatever that person wishes to disassociate from.

As far as I can see, in a religion where faith alone is paramount, when one proclaims such a faith, y'all are stuck with him.
God doesn't expect people to come to know him and believe the Bible ignorantly and blindly. God expects people to do their homework and research to know the truth. You find the truth by study and hard work. Part of that study is listening to teachers, but you're not supposed to depend solely on spoonfeeding. You have to search out the truth on your own, through prayer and diligent studies. Sure. Anybody can come to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ simply by faith. Once that's done, the Holy Spirit will guide and direct you in the right direction if you're totally yielded to him. You still have to immerse yourself in the study of the Bible. Read history, science, and compare all aspects of creation with the Bible, and put 2 and 2 together. "Test all things" as the Bible itself declares. We have to right by God to question, just not in a manner that's proud, boastful, and as if we're demanding something from God. But God wan't people to have an educated learned faith, not a blind, ignorant faith.
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Old 11-05-2007, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,441 posts, read 8,467,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florida southerner 3 View Post
God doesn't expect people to come to know him and believe the Bible ignorantly and blindly. God expects people to do their homework and research to know the truth. You find the truth by study and hard work. Part of that study is listening to teachers, but you're not supposed to depend solely on spoonfeeding. You have to search out the truth on your own, through prayer and diligent studies. Sure. Anybody can come to be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ simply by faith. Once that's done, the Holy Spirit will guide and direct you in the right direction if you're totally yielded to him. You still have to immerse yourself in the study of the Bible. Read history, science, and compare all aspects of creation with the Bible, and put 2 and 2 together. "Test all things" as the Bible itself declares. We have to right by God to question, just not in a manner that's proud, boastful, and as if we're demanding something from God. But God wan't people to have an educated learned faith, not a blind, ignorant faith.
Truth is always consistent and not influenced by politics or religion. Such are natural laws. An apple falls from a tree in any country, regardless of that country's religion or political situation. Prayer cannot change this.
Some years ago two scientists were candidates for the Nobel Prize in physics because they claimed to have discovered cold fission, which would have revolutionized nuclear energy. But, under scrutiny by other scientists, the theory of cold fission was proven false. Atoms function on natural laws, not on prayer or holy spirits.
Anyone can label whatever they want to be "true", that's easy. The hard part is to prove it. Anyone who claims a truth must consider all relevant research, without any political or religious bias. Truths do not depend upon suppressing opposing claims or ignoring evidence.
For the religious to proclaim they know the truth is more a demonstration of faith and belief, not a truth.
I don't think that the religious are interested in finding the "truth", but they are more interested in being right all the time about everything.
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