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What does the word "morals" mean in America?
The first thing that comes to mind is sex, in its various forms.
Ask people how they define morals, and most likely they will respond with opinions concerning sexual behavior.
In America, it seems that "morals" deals exclusively with sexual behavior.
I was wondering about other concepts, such as lying, cheating (not in the sexual sense), greed, bearing false witness, sanctimony, social and political smearing...do they come under the realm of "morals"?
My challenge is this; can you discuss morals WITHOUT mentioning anything about sexual behavior? (Examples of sexual behavior would be: abortion, porno, birth control, homosexuality, promiscuity, pre-marital sex, etc.)
With this challenge do you feel that rug has been pulled out from under your feet?
It's very easy for me to discuss morality in the US without discussing issues of sexuality. Many deeper problems manifest themselves sexually even though the root problem isn't sexual in nature. I'm more concerned with the root problems then I am with the outward manifestation of them.
Well, like you stated, there are other issues that contribute to one's morality.
To me a moral lifestyle would include not lying, cheating, stealing, killing. It would mean that I be a person of integrity. I should say what I mean and then stick to it, not living a life of hypocrisy. The ten commandments are a good rule-of-thumb for moral issues.
Just so you know, I think you can discuss morality without mention of sexuality. However, it is still a part of morality, just not the only part.
Morals are not strictly a religious debate, and we just had a thread on morals....You may be interested in finding it and reading what we had to say...Personally, I do not think the issue of morality is mostly about sex...
I think basic dishonesty is as rampant in this country as anything else.
From our government, our clergy, our friends, neighbors and business associates.
I think greed is also probably one of the most prevalent sins in America as well.
I think, as Sean said, that all these things are symptoms of a much larger moral sickness. I'm more concerned about the disease than I am the symptoms.
What's even more curious to me is whether you honestly thought that 'American Christian moralists' would only dance on the sexual aspect of the decline of this country's morals. But I'm glad you 'took it off the table' so to speak, because, honestly, it's all been said before.
Great idea to talk about these other issues. There is no 'level' to sin. A sin against the nature and character of God is a sin against the nature and character of God, whether I'm lying to my business partner or lusting after money.
Morality, it seems to me, is mostly about limits. The less moral an individual is, the fewer internal limits he has in terms of what he is willing to do, despite whatever harm it may cause. Since sex is a part of life, it's one of the countless things affected by how relatively moral, immoral, or amoral an individual may be. But our morals, or lack thereof, affect everything we do, not just our sex lives. To me this is obvious, but it may not be to obvious people who haven't given the matter much thought.
Of course, if we understand that morality is about limits on personal behavior, this leads us to wonder what the basis of such limits is or ought to be. For Christians, this basis is to be found primarily in the New Testament in its entirety. It's not a "pick-and-choose" affair, nor is it limited to issues of sexuality.
For irreligious moralists, there can multiple bases for limits on personal behavior. Maintaining a reputation for trustworthiness, keeping friendships and family relationships intact, respect for one's fellow man, and a sense of fairness may all play a role. The Christian ideal of "loving one's neighbor as one's self" has tremendous practical value, regardless of whether or not one accepts Christianity's theology.
In the final analysis, morality is essential a social phenomenon, while immorality is essentially egotistic or unsocial/antisocial. As Friedrich Nietzsche so perfectly put it, "Morality is herd instinct in the individual."
Thanks for all the responses.
What I suspected before putting up this thread would be a ho-hum lack of enthusiasm.
If this thread were about abortion or homosexuality it would surely fill up quickly, at the rate of at least 25 posts per hour, making any moderator wipe the sweat from his/her brow just to keep up.
The reason I started this thread because so many people talk about the "moral breakdown", "lack of morals", etc. Such words are usually used by those who are against abortion and homosexuality. Lying, greed, cheating, and bearing false witness are rarely, if ever, mentioned. Least of all by those who claim to be moral. Sure, who wants to shoot arrows which become boomerangs.
From observation, I think that the primary consideration concerning lying, greed, cheating, and bearing false witness is that it's acceptable, as long as our side stands to gain from doing so.
I think that it's the religious people who claim to be the moral ones, by degrading others with phrases such "they are lost" or "they live a dark world".
There are mass movements against abortion and homosexuality, as well as against other phases of sexual behavior. Lying, greed, cheating, and bearing false witness arouse little interest and are intentionally overlooked. I already stated the reason why.
I can name several examples of ongoing conditions which involve lying, cheating, greed, and bearing false witness. I think that the moralists would be the first to defend and excuse such actions, because it benefits their side.
That's why I was wondering if, to the moralists, lying, cheating, greed, and bearing false witness come under the category of morals.
From observation, I think that the primary consideration concerning lying, greed, cheating, and bearing false witness is that it's acceptable, as long as our side stands to gain from doing so.
I think that it's the religious people who claim to be the moral ones, by degrading others with phrases such "they are lost" or "they live a dark world".
I gotta let ya know Visvalsid, that I find those comments offensive. What you are implying is that every single moral issue should be a hot topic of debate for us to run out and make issue of. I disagree.
Why?
The biggest reason is because no one contests these things. Everyone knows lying is morally wrong. Everyone know cheating is morally wrong. When everyone knows something is morally wrong, there's no one to debate with.
What you've done here is bait us into a discussion on topics that there's no debate on and then turn around and bring the same sexual issues you asked us to steer clear of up as a point of contention to the vein of the thread. Sure we'd (some of us, I'm personally done with most of it) be debating abortion and homosexuality and birth control for 11 year olds etc....because we disagree with others on these issues.
I think I'll start a thread on whether the sky is blue or not and see how much traffic it gets. I'd bet it's slightly less than one on global warming. Please.
I think I'll start a thread on whether the sky is blue or not and see how much traffic it gets. I'd bet it's slightly less than one on global warming. Please.
The sky is most definitely purple with green poka dots!
*GASP* I'm actually in agreement with Alpha on this one. I may be a raging liberal, but I know that what riles the conservatives is when someone is telling them that something they think is wrong is right.
Minority groups get motivated when they feel their rights are being taken away from them (btw, it's so tough for me to use neutral language here..LOL).
It's also relevant that things such as lying, cheating, etc. are invisible to most of society. For a long time homosexuality was not mentioned and kept very, very hidden and a large segment of society didn't even know it existed. It was only when visibility increased that the protesting and vehement arguments ensued.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease, though in some cases that grease contains alot of acid.
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