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Old 01-31-2013, 11:17 AM
 
16 posts, read 15,487 times
Reputation: 23

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[1] Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospel story cannot be found in Christian writings
earlier than the Gospels, the first of which (Mark) was composed only toward the
end of the first century CE.

[2] There is no non-Christian reference to Jesus earlier than the second century.
The two references in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) are unreliable
and can be dismissed in their entirety as later Christian insertions.

[3] The early epistles, such as Paul and Hebrews, speak of their Christ Jesus
(Messiah Savior) as a spiritual, heavenly being, one revealed by God through
scripture, and do not equate him with a recent historical man. Paul is part of a
new salvation movement acting on revelation from the Spirit.

[4] Paul and other early writers place the death and resurrection of their Christ
in the supernatural/mythical world based on Platonic and Semitic cosmology,
and derive their information about these events, as well as other features of their
heavenly Christ, from scripture.

[5] The ancients viewed the universe as finite and multi-layered: matter below,
spirit above. The higher world of the heavens was regarded as the superior,
genuine reality, where spiritual processes and heavenly counterparts to earthly
things were located. Paul's Christ operates within this system.

[6] The pagan "mystery cults" of the period worshiped savior deities who had
performed salvific acts. Under the influence of Platonism, these acts came to be
interpreted by the cults as taking place in the supernatural/mythical world, not on
earth or in history. The Pauline Christ was similarly regarded as undergoing
death and resurrection in the heavenly realm. This new Christ belief also shared
other mythological concepts current in the ancient world.

[7] The most prominent philosophical-religious concept of the period was the
intermediary Son, a spiritual channel between the ultimate transcendent God and
humanity. Such intermediary concepts as the Greek Logos and Jewish
personified Wisdom were models for Paul's heavenly Christ and Son, who took
on an additional, sacrificial role under the inspiration of scripture.

[8] All the Gospels derive their basic story of Jesus of Nazareth from one
source: the Gospel of Mark, the first one composed. Subsequent evangelists
reworked Mark in their own interests and added new material. None of the
evangelists show any concern for creating genuine history. The Acts of the
Apostles as an account of the beginnings of the Christian apostolic movement is
historically unreliable, a second century piece of legend-making.

[9] The Gospels were not written as historical accounts, but present a symbolic
representation of a Galilean kingdom-preaching sect, combined with a fictional
passion story set on earth, probably meant to allegorize the heavenly Christ's
death and resurrection in the supernatural realm. They are constructed through
the process of "midrash," a Jewish method of reworking old biblical passages
and tales to reflect new beliefs. The story of Jesus' trial and crucifixion is a
pastiche of verses from scripture, and has nothing to do with "history
remembered."

[10] "Q" is a lost sayings collection extracted from Matthew and Luke, and
made no reference to a death and resurrection, or soteriological role for its Jesus.
It can be shown to have had no Jesus figure at its roots: some of which roots
were ultimately non-Jewish. The Q community preached the imminent coming of
the kingdom of God and the arrival of the heavenly Son of Man, and its
traditions were eventually assigned to an invented founder who was combined
with the spiritual Christ Jesus of the Pauline type in the Gospel of Mark. The
case for the existence of Q is much superior to any alternative explanation for the common material in Matthew and Luke.

[11] The initial variety of sects and beliefs about a spiritual heavenly Christ and
Son of God, some with a revealer role, others with a sacrificial one, shows that
this broad movement began in many different places, a multiplicity of largely
independent and spontaneous developments based on the Jewish scriptures and
other religious expressions of the time, not as a response to a single individual or
point of origin.

[12] Well into the second century, many Christian documents lack or reject the
notion of a past human man as an element of their faith. The type of Christ belief
which became later orthodoxy developed only through the course of the second
century, to eventually gain dominance toward its end. Only gradually did the
Jesus of Nazareth portrayed in the Gospels come to be accepted as historical and his 'life story' real.

 
Old 01-31-2013, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,912 posts, read 8,485,373 times
Reputation: 11606
*groan* Yet another Jesus-never-existed thread.

Did Jesus Christ Really Exist? Proving Jesus Without the Bible | Beginning And End

One of a 1000 sites that provide evidence that Jesus existed.

As to your points 8 & 9; Note what Dr Luke stated in the beginning of his account:

Luke 1:1-4 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

Last edited by Mr5150; 01-31-2013 at 12:22 PM..
 
Old 01-31-2013, 12:53 PM
 
16 posts, read 15,487 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
*groan* Yet another Jesus-never-existed thread.

[URL="http://beginningandend.com/jesus-exist-historical-evidence-jesus-christ/"]Did Jesus Christ Really Exist? Proving Jesus Without the Bible | Beginning And End[/URL]

One of a 1000 sites that provide evidence that Jesus existed.

As to your points 8 & 9; Note what Dr Luke stated in the beginning of his account:

Luke 1:1-4 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
NONSENSE! You can't use the bible to prove the bible is real! The bible is based on the Judeo Christian MYTH and nothing more!

Even the 2 or 3 historical characters Christians try and point to prove Jesus lived NEVER saw any Jesus and were born well after the alleged Jesus lived! Hardly credible or reliable sources!
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:00 PM
 
6,637 posts, read 3,861,632 times
Reputation: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusNEVERexisted View Post
[1] Jesus of Nazareth and the Gospel story cannot be found in Christian writings
earlier than the Gospels, the first of which (Mark) was composed only toward the
end of the first century CE.

[2] There is no non-Christian reference to Jesus earlier than the second century.
The two references in Flavius Josephus (end of the first century) are unreliable
and can be dismissed in their entirety as later Christian insertions.

[3] The early epistles, such as Paul and Hebrews, speak of their Christ Jesus
(Messiah Savior) as a spiritual, heavenly being, one revealed by God through
scripture, and do not equate him with a recent historical man. Paul is part of a
new salvation movement acting on revelation from the Spirit.

[4] Paul and other early writers place the death and resurrection of their Christ
in the supernatural/mythical world based on Platonic and Semitic cosmology,
and derive their information about these events, as well as other features of their
heavenly Christ, from scripture.

[5] The ancients viewed the universe as finite and multi-layered: matter below,
spirit above. The higher world of the heavens was regarded as the superior,
genuine reality, where spiritual processes and heavenly counterparts to earthly
things were located. Paul's Christ operates within this system.

[6] The pagan "mystery cults" of the period worshiped savior deities who had
performed salvific acts. Under the influence of Platonism, these acts came to be
interpreted by the cults as taking place in the supernatural/mythical world, not on
earth or in history. The Pauline Christ was similarly regarded as undergoing
death and resurrection in the heavenly realm. This new Christ belief also shared
other mythological concepts current in the ancient world.

[7] The most prominent philosophical-religious concept of the period was the
intermediary Son, a spiritual channel between the ultimate transcendent God and
humanity. Such intermediary concepts as the Greek Logos and Jewish
personified Wisdom were models for Paul's heavenly Christ and Son, who took
on an additional, sacrificial role under the inspiration of scripture.

[8] All the Gospels derive their basic story of Jesus of Nazareth from one
source: the Gospel of Mark, the first one composed. Subsequent evangelists
reworked Mark in their own interests and added new material. None of the
evangelists show any concern for creating genuine history. The Acts of the
Apostles as an account of the beginnings of the Christian apostolic movement is
historically unreliable, a second century piece of legend-making.

[9] The Gospels were not written as historical accounts, but present a symbolic
representation of a Galilean kingdom-preaching sect, combined with a fictional
passion story set on earth, probably meant to allegorize the heavenly Christ's
death and resurrection in the supernatural realm. They are constructed through
the process of "midrash," a Jewish method of reworking old biblical passages
and tales to reflect new beliefs. The story of Jesus' trial and crucifixion is a
pastiche of verses from scripture, and has nothing to do with "history
remembered."

[10] "Q" is a lost sayings collection extracted from Matthew and Luke, and
made no reference to a death and resurrection, or soteriological role for its Jesus.
It can be shown to have had no Jesus figure at its roots: some of which roots
were ultimately non-Jewish. The Q community preached the imminent coming of
the kingdom of God and the arrival of the heavenly Son of Man, and its
traditions were eventually assigned to an invented founder who was combined
with the spiritual Christ Jesus of the Pauline type in the Gospel of Mark. The
case for the existence of Q is much superior to any alternative explanation for the common material in Matthew and Luke.

[11] The initial variety of sects and beliefs about a spiritual heavenly Christ and
Son of God, some with a revealer role, others with a sacrificial one, shows that
this broad movement began in many different places, a multiplicity of largely
independent and spontaneous developments based on the Jewish scriptures and
other religious expressions of the time, not as a response to a single individual or
point of origin.

[12] Well into the second century, many Christian documents lack or reject the
notion of a past human man as an element of their faith. The type of Christ belief
which became later orthodoxy developed only through the course of the second
century, to eventually gain dominance toward its end. Only gradually did the
Jesus of Nazareth portrayed in the Gospels come to be accepted as historical and his 'life story' real.
Uhhhhhhh Huhhhhhhh...too bad for you you're spitting into a strong wind.

The FACT is...That "Never Existed Myth-Man" has enough "MOJO" to trounce anything you have to put up as a challenger in the "Arena of World Influence".

Don't believe me? Any search will show you that J.C. is one of, if not the most, influential entities in all of history. If you are looking for something "proven"...try THAT.
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:08 PM
 
16 posts, read 15,487 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
Uhhhhhhh Huhhhhhhh...too bad for you you're spitting into a strong wind.

The FACT is...That "Never Existed Myth-Man" has enough "MOJO" to trounce anything you have to put up as a challenger in the "Arena of World Influence".

Don't believe me? Any search will show you that J.C. is one of, if not the most, influential entities in all of history. If you are looking for something "proven"...try THAT.
And you will see that they simply ASSUME he existed but the evidence is NOT there! Not a single historical character ever saw any Jesus or was even a contemporary of Jesus and plenty of them were around yet there was NO Jesus they ever spoke of!

Jesus is part of the Judeo Christian MYTH and simply saying the bible says different is like using the bible to prove talking snakes or unicorns are real!
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:15 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,976,072 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusNEVERexisted View Post
And you will see that they simply ASSUME he existed but the evidence is NOT there! Not a single historical character ever saw any Jesus or was even a contemporary of Jesus and plenty of them were around yet there was NO Jesus they ever spoke of!

Jesus is part of the Judeo Christian MYTH and simply saying the bible says different is like using the bible to prove talking snakes or unicorns are real!
It's mind-boggling the sillyness that some people go to. To suggest he never existed is lunacy. Besides the 4 Gospels, and the numerous other New Testament historical books, along with the fact that a huge movement began as a result just makes anyone that holds to this position look dumb.

There is more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that some guy with 12 posts exists.

Last edited by Vizio; 01-31-2013 at 01:23 PM..
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:20 PM
 
28,906 posts, read 45,227,864 times
Reputation: 45815
If Christ was a myth, then why did 11 of his 12 apostles die martyrs? Why would 11 willingly go to their deaths for a person who never existed?
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:23 PM
 
81 posts, read 107,253 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
*groan* Yet another Jesus-never-existed thread.

Did Jesus Christ Really Exist? Proving Jesus Without the Bible | Beginning And End

One of a 1000 sites that provide evidence that Jesus existed.

As to your points 8 & 9; Note what Dr Luke stated in the beginning of his account:

Luke 1:1-4 Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, 3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, 4 that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.
Why do you Christians think that you are so "unique". There are 10,00 religions according to studies done and a total of 2,600 different God figures. Do I have to remind you that all of them think that they are correct in their views. They are "as sure" that they are correct as you are about your own religion and can argue for hours why they are correct.

By the way..Where is Jesus and God. They have not showed themselves since Christianity started. Nothing..where are they? Of course I will hear from people that he has "spoken " to them or changed their life and son on. Guess what ....the other religions with different holy figures, history, views also say the same thing that their Gods and religion have spoken to them and changed their life. Go figure.

Will you say that "There is only one true person and that is Jesus". Guess what, the other religion say the same thing about their God and holy figures....

I'm predicting that you will come up with "unique" things that make Christianity the true one right ? Guess what..they other religions do the same thing...

Just answer me a "Yes" or "No" to these questions:

1. The other religions are as sure about their religion as I am about mine (Answer - Yes/No)
2. My religion is "unique" and is the only true one (Answer - Yes/No)
3 Jesus is the only way and you have to accept him to get to heaven (Answer - Yes/No)
4. Christianity is the only religion that has the right answers (Answer - Yes/No) (if you say no please list the other religions that also got it correct).
5. Do you think any other Gods or holy figures from other religions have appeared or spoken to people of those other religions since the start of their religion? (Answer - Yes/No) Note: Once again..in all religions the god and holy figures just disappear after the religions starts and is never seen or heard from again.
6 All the other religions are made up of fairy tales but my own is not (Answer - Yes/No)

Take a wild guess what all these 10,00 religions and 2,600 Gods have in common. Well, let me tell you. In the beginning of a religion (which of course is the only period when Gods have appeared) none of them have since then showed themselves or done anything. None out of 2,600 Gods have appeared and done anything. 0 out of 2,600. None...and I don't mean that someone has said that the holy figure changed their life or spoke to them but actually something big that can be observes by many people. If that is the case please tell me what happened. All the miracles, all the appearances of the God or holy figure only happens in the beginning of the religion, then the 2,600 Gods all disappear and is never heard or seen from ever again...I wonder why

It is 2013 people....

Last edited by johnsweeting; 01-31-2013 at 01:39 PM..
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:24 PM
 
16 posts, read 15,487 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
It's mind-boggling the sillyness that some people go to. To suggest he never existed is lunacy. Besides the 4 Gospels, and the numerous other New Testament historical books, along with the fact that a huge movement began as a result just makes anyone that holds to this position look dumb.
YOU are the one who is foolish! The New Testament is NOT a historical book! It is middle eastern MYTHOLOGY!

There was recently a best selling book out called "Man Seeks God" where a guy studied many religions and found out there are over 10,000 gods. You realize how foolish you Christians look by denying all those 10,000 gods and then making the moronic statement that somehow your middle eastern god is real?

There is NOTHING to show that one god is any more real than another! The only reason Jesus is well known is because he was spread by FORCE by the Roman Empire! Ideally he should've died out when the Roman Empire died out but his death is coming! Now that there are now longer Christian societies but only secular ones the Christian religion will be reduced to a cult in a few hundred years!

Almost 2,000 years of FORCE is why the Jesus story is so well known BUT it's just a story and not reality!
 
Old 01-31-2013, 01:28 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,976,072 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by JesusNEVERexisted View Post
YOU are the one who is foolish! The New Testament is NOT a historical book! It is middle eastern MYTHOLOGY!
Actually, it's a collection of historical books, letters, and prophecies. It's not a single book. And yes--that collection of books gives me more reason to believe that Jesus exists than some dude that posts on the internet bent on disproving religion.
Quote:

There was recently a best selling book out called "Man Seeks God" where a guy studied many religions and found out there are over 10,000 gods. You realize how foolish you Christians look by denying all those 10,000 gods and then making the moronic statement that somehow your middle eastern god is real?

There is NOTHING to show that one god is any more real than another! The only reason Jesus is well known is because he was spread by FORCE by the Roman Empire! Ideally he should've died out when the Roman Empire died out but his death is coming! Now that there are now longer Christian societies but only secular ones the Christian religion will be reduced to a cult in a few hundred years!

Almost 2,000 years of FORCE is why the Jesus story is so well known BUT it's just a story and not reality!
lol...REALLY? Do some research. Realize that there was persecution and killing of Christians in the first couple hundred years. Realize that the Romans tried to destroy the Bible and they couldn't. Realize that somehow, this little fledgeling religion grew from 12 disciples to grow exponentially and become a massive force throughout the world in a very short time.

But if you're really bent on not believing....ok. Whatever.
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