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Old 10-23-2007, 02:15 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,731,417 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
You have to buy into a belief in Jesus. If I want to forgive someone, I forgive them. I don't say it is contingent upon their belief of Dracula.
I agree with the latter part of your statement..neither does It require a belief in anything for me to forgive someone..and you are correct..one does have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead. But for me..its not just a belief..I have a personal savior...One who had me on his mind (and you) when he was on the cross..salvation is free..but you are correct..it requires a belief.
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:19 PM
 
443 posts, read 1,539,242 times
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Technically, jesus was a zombie, not a vampire.

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Old 10-23-2007, 02:20 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satanoid View Post
Technically, jesus was a zombie, not a vampire.

okay..lol..walking dead..
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:22 PM
AT9
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
691 posts, read 1,216,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satanoid View Post
First of all, how was it a sacrifice when jesus was only subjected to a few days of pain, and then immediately zipped back up to heaven to be with god? He 'gave his only begotten son'... oh really? It seems he sent him off for a short while, and what is that time to a being who is supposedly eternal?

What kind of sacrifice was that? God knew exactly what would happen, and knew that jesus would be right back. He didn't send jesus to hell for eternity, he reserves that 'sacrifice' for us humans, his less favored children.

Secondly, god could make a billion christs, and sacrifice them all, so what makes jesus so special?

Lastly, god makes the rules, so why is it some big sacrifice that he sends his 'son' to earth for a few decades, has him killed, and promptly brought back to heaven? He could have just said 'eh, ok you're all forgiven.' Who would argue with him?

The hours jesus spent (or who knows, maybe didn't spend) on the cross are a mere SHADOW of the pain going on all over the earth. A burn victim, a machete amputee, a molested child - may suffer a lifetime of anguish, and yet we're supposed to be impressed by a few days of torture?

The ideology behind this really confuses me... it assumes all sorts of ideas, all of which seems to be fallacious.
I don't know if you have any kids, but imagine you do....Even if you knew your child was going to be back with you after death, wouldn't it still be a horror to watch your own (perfect) son or daughter persecuted, tortured, and killed? It was a major sacrafice for God to have Jesus, a perfect man, take the responsibilty of all of our sins.

Your second point: He was special because he was God's only son. Only one man could take the punishment for all of us, and that was Christ. He did not deserve to die,but we do, and that's what makes it so special.

Your last point: Because if he siad that then we wouldn't have the same love and respect for Christ. And the length of torture is not the issue. The fact is he took the torture for YOU. Being a burn victim is not punishment for doing something wrong, but he sacrificed himself for everyone.
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:22 PM
 
1,969 posts, read 6,381,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
I agree with the latter part of your statement..neither does It require a belief in anything for me to forgive someone..and you are correct..one does have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead. But for me..its not just a belief..I have a personal savior...One who had me on his mind (and you) when he was on the cross..salvation is free..but you are correct..it requires a belief.
If you are happy with that, cool. My mind simply doesn't work that way.
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:24 PM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeDog View Post
If you are happy with that, cool. My mind simply doesn't work that way.
yes, very happy..and I understand
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Old 10-23-2007, 10:58 PM
 
169 posts, read 632,242 times
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What I've never understood (and I was raised as a Christian until I became old enough to question what I was taught) is the whole mechanism or idea that Jesus "took upon himself the sins of mankind" or "took responsibility for our sins" or however it's stated. What is the whole point or explanation of that concept?

If I were to "take the responsibility for someone else's sin", in my mind that equates to something like this:

Joe Jones robs a convenience store (that's a sin in the eyes of society and law, and thus Joe Jones deserves to be punished, let's say sent to jail).

But I, who never stole anything in my life, go to the police and say "Yes, Joe Jones robbed the store; but I will take the responsibility for his crime, so instead of sending Joe to jail, I will go to jail instead, so that Joe can get a fresh start with no blot on his record."

So I would then be taking upon myself the responsibility for and punishment for Joe's sin/offense. Is this basically what Christianity is saying that Jesus did, but on a much larger scale? If so, what does this accomplish except giving Joe Jones (i.e., mankind) a one-time get out of jail free card?

If instead I made a deal with the judge and say "I will not only go to jail now instead of Joe Jones, but my doing so will also negate any jail sentencce for any and all crimes that Joe's relatives and friends and descendants yet unborn will ever make" ... isn't that also what Christianity is essentially saying Jesus did?

The whole scenario just makes no logical sense to my way of thinking. I've never read any kind of intelligible explanation as to how this magical transference of some kind of past, present and future "metaphysical jail sentence" from mankind to Jesus actually came about or why it was needed in the first place. For that matter, what exactly did (or does) mankind need to be saved from, anyway?

Everyone just says "Jesus did that and this happened and that's why it's true" but that kind of explanation is just not enough to satisfy me.
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:34 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,206,905 times
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Originally Posted by Astrantia
Quote:
The whole scenario just makes no logical sense to my way of thinking. I've never read any kind of intelligible explanation as to how this magical transference of some kind of past, present and future "metaphysical jail sentence" from mankind to Jesus actually came about or why it was needed in the first place.
Exactly, forgiving someone who does not repent, or believes that he didn't do anything wrong, is fruitless. It would be like carying water to the sea.
It is only positive for the forgiver so he could be at peace with himself and psychologically move on.

Quote:
For that matter, what exactly did (or does) mankind need to be saved from, anyway?
Originally Judaism was not for gentiles, but Jesus with his teachings opened it up for them.
I don't think he did that with the crucifixion, but with actually going to them and teaching to them. Accepting those who normally were thought unworthy and not Jewish
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:15 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 9,731,417 times
Reputation: 1596
forgiveness is available..its free..but it does require asking for it..

and for a more "intelligible" explantation..Astrantia..Ill let someone else do it


Why Did Jesus Have to Die?
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:09 AM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,510,765 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
well..if Christ is both God and Man...then he can....your thinking of my being illogical is also referred to as ..faith
God = omnipotent
Man = not omnipotent

Again, a contradiction in terms.

Faith is defined as belief without evidence, not belief in something that contradicts itself.
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