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Finally I can hardly believe that anyone can seriously see Genesis 3.15 as a prophecy of Christ. It is just one exaple of the dozens of demonstrable examples of OT script being taken out of context and made to look as though they predicted the event of Jesus' life -which was of course tailored to fit the scripture.
You doubt me of course. Let me give an example. The death of Judas used prophecies from the Old testament, but they have had to be rewritten in order to make them look anything like they related to Judas, and even then they don't fit very well. And it is worse when you look at them in context - they don't have anything whatsoever to do with Judas. The best that one can say is they they are prophecies hidden in unrelated OT events that had to be found by inspired Evangelists looking for prophecies of Christ. And in a way - that's just what they are.
If you reply, please don't waste my time with protests that I haven't felt the power of God,or that millions would not die for a lie.
Then what is your explanation for Genesis 3:15? It certainly seems out of place if someone was just retelling a folktale. There are over 300 fullfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT. You have no basis to claim that the text was manipulated or rewritten to force a fullfilled prophecy.
Then what is your explanation for Genesis 3:15? It certainly seems out of place if someone was just retelling a folktale. There are over 300 fullfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT. You have no basis to claim that the text was manipulated or rewritten to force a fullfilled prophecy.
Like what? Give one, just one with evidence that it really was a fulfilled prophecy...Choose one you are sure of because I am going to refute it.
Then show me another folklore that contains detailed geneologies, a book of laws, events that are supported by extra-biblical sources along with "oral traditions" transcribed and preserved carefully through thousands of years (Dead Sea Scrolls proves this). How about a folklore that intersects with another ancient culture and contains remarkable detail about that culture? The story of Joseph gives much insight into the politics and socialogical culture of Egypt.
And why would these oral traditions preserve something bizzarre like Genesis 3:15? This is clearly a reference to the coming of Christ.
The evidence weighs in favor of the Bible as history.
RESPONSE:
Oral "traditions" only evidence that the story was repeated often, not that it is true. Folklore by its nature is repeated often. That's how it becomes folklore.
The Epic of Gilgamesh (on the web) predates the bible by perhaps a thousand years. It contains the characteristics you are looking for. In fact, it's "flood" story seems to havge been copied into the Old Testament.
But it didn't happen either.
You haven't presented any specific evidence. Only assertions that such exists.
During the First World War, the British were fighting against the Turks in Palestine.
I read one British general wanted to attack a Turkish stronghold, so he read some passages from the Bible that described how the Israelites did a similar attack. Based on what the Israelites had done, he developed his own plan and his attack was successful.
So the Bible has some factual history in it.
RESPONSE:
Your assertion is way too vague. It might be written that a British general observed that the Israelites won by killing the enemy. Therefore, his forces killed the enemy too and he won.
Please specifically identify the historical event and the related bible passage you are referring to.
[quote=BLASTED;28631185]Then show me another folklore that contains detailed geneologies, a book of laws, events that are supported by extra-biblical sources along with "oral traditions" transcribed and preserved carefully through thousands of years (Dead Sea Scrolls proves this). How about a folklore that intersects with another ancient culture and contains remarkable detail about that culture? The story of Joseph gives much insight into the politics and socialogical culture of Egypt.
And why would these oral traditions preserve something bizzarre like Genesis 3:15? This is clearly a reference to the coming of Christ.
RESPONSE:
>>And why would these oral traditions preserve something bizzarre like Genesis 3:15? This is clearly a reference to the coming of Christ. <<
Not at all. This was a Christian invention.
Lets take a look.
Genesis 3: 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;They will strike at your head, while you strike at their heel. (NAB)
"They will strike…at their heel: the antecedent for “they” and “their” is the collective noun “offspring,” i.e., all the descendants of the woman." (NAB)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; they shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.'
The word Arameric word of seed (zra) means seed in terms of prosterity. This " prophecy" refers to all the Hebrews, who were the offspring of Eve. It is obviously ongoing from that point in Genesis onward, not just one conception thousands of years later.
The Jews never counted this as a messianic prophecy, did they?
>>The evidence weighs in favor of the Bible as history.<<
No it doesn't. Archaeology in particular disproves this.
Summarized by Wikipedia, we have:
"A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[3] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[4] "
(3) Meyers, Carol (2005). Exodus. Cambridge University Press., page 5
(4) Dever, William (2001). What Did the Biblical Writers Know, and When Did They Know It?. pg 99, Eerdmans. ISBN 3-927120-37-5.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 03-12-2013 at 05:16 PM..
Reason: addition
Then what is your explanation for Genesis 3:15? It certainly seems out of place if someone was just retelling a folktale. There are over 300 fullfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT. You have no basis to claim that the text was manipulated or rewritten to force a fullfilled prophecy.
Pretty clear that God is telling the lizard (just after he amputates his legs) that the woman's decendents will jump on his head and he will bite them. Nothing to do with jesus.
And Yes, I can make a case that the Gospel story was concocted by the evangelists and they used the OT text where it was half -way appropriate to flesh out the gospel story. Ofcourse I can't expect tou to take my word for it - even if I showed a glaring example of prophecy -fiddling in the death of Judas.But the point is that claiming that Jesus fulfilled prophecy does not impress me at all.
And Jesus often made references to the OT events as if they really did happen.
RESPONSE:
No. Actually it was usually Matthew who did this claiming Jesus as his source. Perhaps we can examine these on a separate thread, but you are not going to like the results.
>>There are over 300 fullfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT<<
Really? Perhaps you can suggest some specific prophecies that you believe were "fulfilled," and we can examine the evidence.
No. Actually it was usually Matthew who did this claiming Jesus as his source. Perhaps we can examine these on a separate thread, but you are not going to like the results.
>>There are over 300 fullfilled prophecies of Christ in the OT<<
Really? Perhaps you can suggest some specific prophecies that you believe were "fulfilled," and we can examine the evidence.
I'll look forward to that, though it might need a different thread. The problem arises in the Context. The prophetic nugget may fit - because, as I say, the Jesus screenplay was built up around it, which is why often some comment or remark by Jesus is unaccountably not recorded by the others. They clearly did not collude in producing their own gospels. Butread the context and the whole passage of Isaiah or Psalms clearly refers to someone quite unlike Jesus.
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