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Old 04-20-2013, 12:17 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
That depends which 'Jesus' you are referring to TAJR. When historians talk about 'Jesus' being a real person, they are not talking about the character depicted in the Bible. They are saying that there is no reason not to accept that an itinerant rabbi/preacher going by the name of Yeshua ben Yosef was wandering around Palestine preaching against the establishment; but you will be hard pressed to find historians that would accept that there was any 'Jesus' as depicted in the Bible...a man who performed miracle because he was the 'Son of God' and who came back to life after being killed. Let's get our Jesus' right here bro! The one is a possibility. The other isn't. So which one are you going to be arguing for? Yeshua ben Yosef or Jesus The Christ.

The point you appear to be missing is that if you are going to argue that the existence of Christians is good evidence for the existence of 'Christ' (which you appear to be doing), you must be intellectually honest and argue that the existence of Hindus is evidence for the existence of the Hindu gods or the existence of ANY religion is evidence that the gods they worship do exist.
I think TAJR is talking about that guy that is commonly refered to as "The Most Influential Person Ever" :Most Influential People of All Time - Top Ten List

He always at least makes the "Top Ten" in the hundreds of lists there are like this...usually #1 or #2. Which is quite a feat for a guy that it's claimed wasn't such a much...or even more incredible, never existed at all!
I wonder how a fictional or "trumped-up" character manages to do that?
MOF...if JC is fictional...that's even MORE incredible! A made-up person with THAT mojo...among mostly literate and educated people?! WOW!
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,822,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I think TAJR is talking about that guy that is commonly refered to as "The Most Influential Person Ever" :Most Influential People of All Time - Top Ten List
It wasn't about him it was about 'historians that believe Jesus existed'. The Jesus they believe existed is not JC.

Quote:
He always at least makes the "Top Ten" in the hundreds of lists there are like this...usually #1 or #2. Which is quite a feat for a guy that it's claimed wasn't such a much...or even more incredible, never existed at all!
Well if you have any verifiable evidence for the existence of the dude I'll certainly take a look at it...but I won't hold my breath.

Quote:
I wonder how a fictional or "trumped-up" character manages to do that?
..because a lot of people believe he existed; but if you want to go along those lines perhaps you could explain how millions of people would put the gods of Hinduism at the top of the list and for 1000 years longer than JC too. Would it be because those gods are real?

Quote:
MOF...if JC is fictional...that's even MORE incredible! A made-up person with THAT mojo...among mostly literate and educated people?! WOW!
You don't understand my child. When a lot of people (educated or otherwise) believe something, it doesn't mean that the belief is TRUE, it means that the belief is POPULAR. You see GldnRain....there was once a time when nearly every person on this planet, billions of them, thought it was flat. It didn't mean that the belief was TRUE because billions believed it because, as we now know, it wasn't. What it did mean is that the belief that the world was flat was POPULAR. Got it?
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,567 posts, read 12,793,537 times
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Why is this title as an argument against Christianity? It should be titled an argument against God. You want to have a debate with the universe - be my guest- These types of threads are an utter waste of time and serve no purpose other than trying to prove the other guy wrong- It's a one up on the other contest- There is NEVER a conclusion or a resolution of this issue because people are not bright enough to distinguish that there is a difference between religion and God- that religion has nothing to do with God. Have fun.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,825 posts, read 13,364,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I think TAJR is talking about that guy that is commonly refered to as "The Most Influential Person Ever" :Most Influential People of All Time - Top Ten List

He always at least makes the "Top Ten" in the hundreds of lists there are like this...usually #1 or #2.
There are many memes / beliefs / legends / mythical figures that are just as enduring and pervasive as Jesus. That doesn't make them right. The only thing that proves is that people find them appealing.

One of the big reasons why is "agency attribution", our strong tendency to see agency where it does not exist. The canonical example is hearing a sudden noise in the brush and assuming it's a predator before cognition has a chance to kick in. Run now, ask questions later. If it was just a random falling branch, no harm. If it was in fact a sabre toothed tiger, you just survived to pass your genes on.

Many other such notions have existed in the past. For example, a notion that naturally occurs to children and primitive societies everywhere is that animation is what distinguishes living things from non-living things. Things that move are alive. Things that don't, aren't. We know better than that now and don't think in these terms anymore. But there was a time not that long ago when people did, so that some thought that magnets had souls because they moved, and even Kepler saw stars as "animated" because they moved. Here's a fascinating essay on the topic: JSTOR: The Problem of Animate Motion in the 17th Century

I submit that assuming the popularity of an idea lends credence to its validity is an even more primitive muddle of ideas than the idea that movement = life.

Last edited by mordant; 04-20-2013 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:20 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
It wasn't about him it was about 'historians that believe Jesus existed'. The Jesus they believe existed is not JC.

Well if you have any verifiable evidence for the existence of the dude I'll certainly take a look at it...but I won't hold my breath.

..because a lot of people believe he existed; but if you want to go along those lines perhaps you could explain how millions of people would put the gods of Hinduism at the top of the list and for 1000 years longer than JC too. Would it be because those gods are real?

You don't understand my child. When a lot of people (educated or otherwise) believe something, it doesn't mean that the belief is TRUE, it means that the belief is POPULAR. You see GldnRain....there was once a time when nearly every person on this planet, billions of them, thought it was flat. It didn't mean that the belief was TRUE because billions believed it because, as we now know, it wasn't. What it did mean is that the belief that the world was flat was POPULAR. Got it?
No, no Raf...I'm not talking about "popular opinion/belief", or stuff ignorant and uneducated people thought (like that the world is flat) because they didn't know better.
I'm talking about literate and educated people (including some of the greatest critical thinkers that ever lived)...after seriously considering the matter and all the information available...coming to a certain conclusion/determination.

The, "Long ago, most people used to believe the earth was flat (or whatever else)", analogy...to contest any, "Most current literate and educated people have made an intellectual assessment and come to a determination/conclusion about something/someone", statement...is useless.
As is the ancient illiterate/uneducated peoples' belief in things/people they were told about...and had no ability to critique for themselves.
Those analogies are always trotted out...and are always bogus. You can't compare the beliefs of the simple and primitive people of ancient times...with the determinations and conclusions drawn by people in a modern, intellectually sophisticated society.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,822,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
You can't compare the beliefs of the simple and primitive people of ancient times...with the determinations and conclusions drawn by people in a modern, intellectually sophisticated society.
OK..so as 2.3 billion believe in JC and 4.6 billion do not, by your claim that popularity of an idea indicates that it is true, we must conclude that the 4.6 billion are correct...yes?
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,822,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I submit that assuming the popularity of an idea lends credence to its validity is an even more primitive muddle of ideas than the idea that movement = life.
Seconded!
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:37 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
Reputation: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
There are many memes / beliefs / legends / mythical figures that are just as enduring and pervasive as Jesus. That doesn't make them right. The only thing that proves is that people find them appealing.

One of the big reasons why is "agency attribution", our strong tendency to see agency where it does not exist. The canonical example is hearing a sudden noise in the brush and assuming it's a predator before cognition has a chance to kick in. Run now, ask questions later. If it was just a random falling branch, no harm. If it was in fact a sabre toothed tiger, you just survived to pass your genes on.

Many other such notions have existed in the past. For example, a notion that naturally occurs to children and primitive societies everywhere is that animation is what distinguishes living things from non-living things. Things that move are alive. Things that don't, aren't. We know better than that now and don't think in these terms anymore. But there was a time not that long ago when people did, so that some thought that magnets had souls because they moved, and even Kepler saw stars as "animated" because they moved. Here's a fascinating essay on the topic: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

I submit that assuming the popularity of an idea lends credence to its validity is an even more primitive muddle of ideas than the idea that movement = life.
This is not a debate about "a notion that naturally occurs to children and primitive societies".
It is about intellectually sophisticated adults coming to a determination and conclusion after a full critical assessment of all the information on something.

See my last post.
As usual...comparisons are made of what "children and primitive people" think, without making a full critique...with the conclusions/determinations of educated adults (some, the most brilliant that have ever lived) after a full consideration of all the information.
I've always wondered why people will put forth such a lame comparison. It must be they figure it's all they got to cling to when things go so overwhelmingly against them.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:51 PM
 
12,595 posts, read 6,628,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
OK..so as 2.3 billion believe in JC and 4.6 billion do not, by your claim that popularity of an idea indicates that it is true, we must conclude that the 4.6 billion are correct...yes?
Now, Raf...2/3 of the current people in this world haven't concluded Jesus never existed. So, right off, that's off base.

I'm not talking "popularity" making something "true"...I'm talking "the merit of conclusions and determinations made by intellectually sophisticated people, after a full assessment of the available information".
Though it doesn't matter which..."Jesus existed" comes out far and away the choice in both of those.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,822,485 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule View Post
I'm not talking "popularity" making something "true"...I'm talking "the merit of conclusions and determinations made by intellectually sophisticated people, after a full assessment of the available information".
So "intellectually sophisticated people" can't be wrong??
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