What if God isn't perfect? (atheism, Abraham, Christian, believers)
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Thanks, ((LM))! And thanks to everyone who has answered so far, but really...with so many thinkers here, really, nobody has ever wondered about this? Not even back when (some of us) were Christians, Jewish, etc. (I've seen quite a few stories here that reference that people were formerly religious)?
I'm agnostic, for the record. I question stuff like this frequently. Maybe I'm just weird?
Nah. Just curious, and that's a good thing.
Christians expend a lot of energy on something called theodicy, which is "explaining" how god can be all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-benevolent, yet allow suffering to exist. There is no logically consistent way to do so that I know of, so another approach that's used from time to time is to acknowledge that the coexistence of suffering with a posited tri-omni god is in fact impossible and then to attempt to go with just two of the three omnis:
* God can be all powerful and all knowing but not all-loving / caring / benevolent -- this would explain suffering in the least forced way to me, if there were a god at all, which I don't believe there is. This version is also appealing to hellfire and brimstone types, who seem to actually enjoy a capricious, angry, vengeful, hateful, sadistic sort of god anyway. To the extent he's loving, it's just for them and the rest of the Elect as they define it -- but then when bad stuff befalls such people they still have to explain (1) how god still loves them and cares about them and (2) how they haven't somehow failed or angered or disappointed god so as to deserve his rejection.
* God can be all powerful and all loving but not all knowing -- this is perhaps the weakest version because you wouldn't have to be anywhere near all-knowing to be aware of at least some suffering -- after all we humans fall into that category. You'd just about have to be all-clueless to overlook human suffering. Besides, how do you reconcile all-powerful with not-all-knowing? Wouldn't absolute power inherently include absolute awareness?
* God can be all knowing and all loving but not all powerful -- either by self-imposed limitations or simple lack of omnipotence he can't fully prevent or fix suffering. This is the argument settled on by the author of When Bad Things Happen to Good People, a fairly popular book over the years that attempts to address the titular situation for the grieving and disappointed. If I recall correctly the author was a Jewish Rabbi (probably Reform). The "comfort" in this position is that god bears witness to our suffering and at least sheds a tear about it. But his hands are tied. It keeps him up nights.
The "3 omnis" posited by the Problem of Suffering (or more commonly and misleadingly, Problem of Evil) which I have outlined above are by no means the only "omnis" claimed for god. There is for example omnipresence, which says he's everywhere (and depending on how you define it, in all times as well as all places). However I think the "3 omnis" are probably the most basic; again, how can you be present everywhere in any meaningful way and not know everything and be all powerful?
I believe the "3 omnis" are how most conservative Christians view god's perfection. Also there is a tendency as I recall to think of perfection more in the sense of "complete in every way", which is a slightly different spin on perfection. God is after all his own standard so he cannot be compared to some arbitrary external standard, he's just intrinsically complete. Now we are getting into the la-la land known as theism where god gets a free pass because he's untouchable by mere human logic, etc.
At any rate, as you can see, some Christians have addressed this issue, much less we unbelievers, but the bottom line for Christian thinkers I am pretty sure is that nothing less than an all powerful, all knowing god can be the creator of all things, therefore, to diminish him in either of those ways deprives them of their "explanation" for the origin of all things.
Personally I don't ask myself "what if god isn't perfect" because I have already asked myself the question "what if god isn't".
What if man isn't the one who gets to decide what is perfect?
Well of course that's the whole point of many religions -- it's god's ball game, he makes the rules.
However, as humans it's entirely legitimate to asses whether those rules are fair and beneficial to US. It's a little like that guy who was born into a North Korean gulag called Camp 14, and destined to live out his days and die there. He had no power to decide whether the gulag was legal, right, or perfect, but he did have the power to decide that he was unhappy and would rather take the risk of escaping than to stay there. Once he was on the outside he saw that even in North Korea things were much better than in the camp -- people got more choice in what to eat for example (he had lived all his life on some kind of gruel and whatever vermin and insects he could catch and eat). That guy didn't "get to decide" but that doesn't make the decision maker perfect or right, it just made them powerful.
What if man isn't the one who gets to decide what is perfect?
I was thinking about this before (brilliant posts, LargeKingCat). Although the Bible doesn't state what ways God is perfect, it does say man should strive to be without sin (without "blemish" -- i.e. perfect) in various ways, including, for example, not coveting. Yet God states He is jealous. Isn't that being covetous? (Covetous/jealous isn't a perfect fit but you get the idea.) It says not to be wrathful yet God is wrathful. God is stating wrath is bad but then He engages in the emotion. Etc.
You would think in order for man to become like God, that would mean man was striving for perfection, if God is perfect. Yet God shows traits He Himself (according to the Bible) states are imperfect.
So you can say, for example, "just because God is jealous doesn't mean He's imperfect -- that's our interpretation," but no, it's not our interpretation. According to the Bible, it's God's interpretation.
Well of course that's the whole point of many religions -- it's god's ball game, he makes the rules.
However, as humans it's entirely legitimate to asses whether those rules are fair and beneficial to US. It's a little like that guy who was born into a North Korean gulag called Camp 14, and destined to live out his days and die there. He had no power to decide whether the gulag was legal, right, or perfect, but he did have the power to decide that he was unhappy and would rather take the risk of escaping than to stay there. Once he was on the outside he saw that even in North Korea things were much better than in the camp -- people got more choice in what to eat for example (he had lived all his life on some kind of gruel and whatever vermin and insects he could catch and eat). That guy didn't "get to decide" but that doesn't make the decision maker perfect or right, it just made them powerful.
Exactly. And if God gets to make the rules and therefore, God is allowed to be vengeful, produce or ignore pain, etc., etc., it boggles my tiny mind that people would want to be with Him forever.
I know that sounds absolutely horrible to theists but please know that 1) I'm not saying I'd rather be with the devil -- though I don't believe in a devil at all even if there may be a God, and 2) I just don't believe a God could be like that. I'm more likely to believe the good-but-not-all-powerful idea, though it's flawed, simply because if there is a God, I do want to believe God is good. This option may be flawed but the others are downright unbearable, IMO.
My friend, you are preaching to the converted. I have been atheist for 63 years. Dawkins would seem like the Archbishop of Canterbury compared to me. I posted "As for God, his way is perfect.....", not because I believe that, but as a reference for the member that was asking if it said anywhere in the Bible that Yahweh is 'perfect'.
It goes back, my friend, to the OP question I guess of who gets to call this perfection ?
Take the Strad for example, suppose I brought you a similar violin, you played it and said "Wow perfect" THEN found out it was a very elaborate clone of the one in the museum ? Would it still be perfect, lacking originality, OR would we as humans say "Well, you did not invent that, you copied it" ?
Most concepts of "god" are based entirely on heresay. Where did this whole idea of "god"" being perfect come about? because someone else said so.
Not because of something measurable or justifiable, but simply hearsay. And is hearsay not only just another form of originality ?
Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect! Matthew 5 :48 Those words were uttered by one who claimed intimate knowledge of God. He was with(in) God @ the beginning.
The logic and human reasoning being used here (without using God's words as reference) is beyond comprehension.
The "pottery" cannot say to the Maker - why did you do this? That is absurd.
Come let us reason - Together saith the Lord. First learn what the bible says before you make these presumptive assumptions based on conjecture.
I suggest you take the time to read Hebrews chapter 11 SLOWLY. "For by it - the elders received a good report (card).
Be ye perfect as your heavenly father is perfect! Matthew 5 :48 Those words were uttered by one who claimed intimate knowledge of God. He was with(in) God @ the beginning.
The logic and human reasoning being used here (without using God's words as reference) is beyond comprehension.
The "pottery" cannot say to the Maker - why did you do this? That is absurd
I've been a dedicated Christian for quite some time, and I've read through the entire Bible twice, and am nearing completion for the third time. I've read some of the challenging sections, such as the flood, and have asked myself these same questions. Here are my answers in a nutshell:
God created us in His image, which includes emotions and the ability to make decisions. The Bible transparently states that God feels angry and jealous at times. But He is simultaneously a God of love and compassion.
So, why did God decide to nearly wipe out humans in a flood? God always makes righteous decisions. The people of the world were committing atrocious sons and were living separately from God. So, it was a righteous decision to start humanity over with a clean slate. God can only be completely holy and free from sin. And that's why we have these Old Testament stories about God destroying communities that were committing horrendous acts.
This changes in the New Testament, after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus was fully man, while also fully God, and lives a sinless life. He experienced all the same temptations and human experiences that we all do, but he lived in such a way that was fully righteous, holy, and loving. So, when He was crucified, Jesus became the holy, perfect sacrifice that dismantled the system that required unwavering holiness from us.
It's abstract, and strange sounding to be sure from a logical standpoint. But, we are talking about the supernatural here. But on a practical level, I've experienced transformation through Jesus. I lived terribly before: addicted to porn, was in a miserable relationship characterized by dishonesty, resentment, and anger, and I lived selfishly. And when I was losing all hope, Jesus came and provided a way out. I dove into this quest for knowing God, and while I still find myself asking challenging questions, God proves himself to be worthy of following every time. Through Jesus, we do have a life of freedom, and it is a beautiful thing. Freedom to make choices, to live without sin, to live with love and compassion for our fellow humans.
I know this post is way late to the party, so I'm not if any of you will ever read this. But God loves you--even though He is hard to understand sometimes. If we could fully make sense of God, then we wouldn't need him, and that's not the way the human race was designed. We are designed to be in relationship--with each other and with God through Jesus.
Love you all. You tackle GREAT questions and there are a lot more meaningful theological questions happening here than what often happens in the church. Keep asking, but be open to what God wants to say to you.
What if God is very capable of things we can never be capable of, and much stronger than we are, but He's not perfect? Why isn't that a possibility?
Discuss. Unless I'm the only heathen who ever thought of such a blasphemy.
To understand who and what is God, we have to realize that He isn't of this world. God is Soul and His Soul has many attributes, the highest being Love... Divine Love. This Love is perfect Love meaning there is no negativity. It is a blissful, peaceful Love.
God the Soul isn't in everything, but His spirit is... His spirit being another attribute of His being.
The free will that God bestows upon us at our birth has to do with whether we will recognize and love Him. It doesn't have anything to do with our day-to-day activities and whether we're going to do the right or wrong thing. He isn't omniscient in the way people think... that He knows what our actions will be in the future. He doesn't... and most times neither do we until we're faced with certain situations.
A distinction between God vs. His children is that He loves us unconditionally, even though some have hate in their heart for God, because they don't know who He really is.
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maybe there is no "perfection", only reality.
I posted "As for God, his way is perfect.....", not because I believe that, but as a reference for the member that was asking if it said anywhere in the Bible that Yahweh is 'perfect'.
