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What PoppySead said. I couldn't have said it better.
If so many Christian attempted laws didn't actually end up hurting people, then non-Christians wouldn't be against them. Thats seems very simple to me. Practice what you want in your own household, but don't use your own beliefs to engineer MY life.
To be honest, I don't think it's even really possible to have these kind of discussions when people are so extreme. It doesn't make sense because in order to really discuss you'd have to agree on some foundation. Either that there is a God or there isn't a God or there MIGHT be a God. There's not really any studies for either side and so the premise has to be taken from an individual's belief system.
For example, if I say, "I believe in God" but I don't follow a religious system (which, btw, I can easily do), there's going to be an atheist who will ask for valid scientific proof, which, I can't give. Nevertheless, there is a God for me. Now I can ask for the scientific evidence for no God, but that doesn't exist either. The information that is often provided only fits within a small scheme of things and requires a certain level of thinking, not fit for a shades of gray.
Within the context of things, an atheist can approach a Christian, for example, and begin to test them on their beliefs to try and prove that God doesn't exist. They can take the Bible at face value and say, "science has proven that the world wasn't created in 7 days" which is true. Science has done so. A Christian can then say, "Time is different with God" And the argument can go on and on. So within a certain scheme, Atheists and people of other religions can haggle but it really makes no difference because neither side is going to compromise. So it's useless, imo and the only people who are really benefitting (which might as well count for something) are the outsiders looking in trying to find justification for their already established, not yet affirmed feelings.
In order to really discuss something, you have to be open to the possibility of a gray area, which neither side is willing to do.
I think what you've said is correct. To believe in what you think is true, imagine is real cannot be argued on either side. Neither can prove something that isn't there to prove. Therefore if we just agree to disagree on the imagined part we'd both benefit.
Now, if you can find a solution for not passing law based on this belief in something we can't prove exist or doesn't let me know. I don't think my respect for others choice of belief contains access to my civil rights. IMO, of course. Do I have to agree on what their belief thinks I should be doing?
Last edited by PoppySead; 04-29-2013 at 08:37 PM..
I think what you've said is correct. To believe in what you think is true, imagine is real cannot be argued on either side. Neither can prove something that isn't there to prove. Therefore if we just agree to disagree on the imagined part we'd both benefit.
Now, if you can find a solution for not passing law based on this belief in something we can't prove exist or doesn't let me know. I don't think my respect for others choice of belief contains access to my civil rights. IMO, of course. Do I have to agree on what their belief thinks I should be doing?
I'm not going to address the first part but in terms of the second part: No, you don't. But if there's a voting process and the majority of people happen to vote against you, or you don't vote at all, then even if you disagree, the laws work against you. That's how democracy works.
Do know that it's not just "atheists" who feel there should be a separation of church vs state. The whole world isn't against you and there are even Christians and Catholics who support the rights to things like gay marriage, etc so it isn't that black and white and isn't just an atheist movement which, imo, is isolating and disregards those who happen to agree with you, even if their religious views differ. If only 5% of America (atheist) pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization etc, ideally, they wouldn't pass under a democracy so you aren't battling with just religion, you're battling the status quo and resistance to change. As I've stated before in this forum, most people haven't even so much as read their Bible, they're just raised in a certain culture.
In addition to that, these issues are coming up because there are people in this country who are religious and so these issues are of value to them and they're making it known by talking to their representatives. These laws don't HAVE to pass, that's where political involvement comes in. You have every right to speak out against it as well. If America is a democracy, then I'm sorry if you're offended by the laws when the majority happen to carry with them Christian values. I really, genuinely am, because the majority isn't always right on things. Even as Christians we don't always agree on interpretations of the Bible, which makes sense because though we're Christian we're human first and we don't all see life through the same lens. But the people who vote are the people who are most passionate so if it's of such strong interest: vote, get active, and get involved.
I'm not going to address the first part but in terms of the second part: No, you don't. But if there's a voting process and the majority of people happen to vote against you, or you don't vote at all, then even if you disagree, the laws work against you. That's how democracy works.
Do know that it's not just "atheists" who feel there should be a separation of church vs state. The whole world isn't against you and there are even Christians and Catholics who support the rights to things like gay marriage, etc so it isn't that black and white and isn't just an atheist movement which, imo, is isolating and disregards those who happen to agree with you, even if their religious views differ. If only 5% of America (atheist) pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization etc, ideally, they wouldn't pass under a democracy so you aren't battling with just religion, you're battling the status quo and resistance to change. As I've stated before in this forum, most people haven't even so much as read their Bible, they're just raised in a certain culture.
In addition to that, these issues are coming up because there are people in this country who are religious and so these issues are of value to them and they're making it known by talking to their representatives. These laws don't HAVE to pass, that's where political involvement comes in. You have every right to speak out against it as well. If America is a democracy, then I'm sorry if you're offended by the laws when the majority happen to carry with them Christian values. I really, genuinely am, because the majority isn't always right on things. Even as Christians we don't always agree on interpretations of the Bible, which makes sense because though we're Christian we're human first and we don't all see life through the same lens. But the people who vote are the people who are most passionate so if it's of such strong interest: vote, get active, and get involved.
That's really all I can say to this.
Fortunately, we have a system of checks and balances so that the minority is not at the mercy of the majority. BTW, the U.S. is a representative republic, not a democracy.
Fortunately, we have a system of checks and balances so that the minority is not at the mercy of the majority. BTW, the U.S. is a representative republic, not a democracy.
I agree that r/atheism is not the most articulate space on the internet devoted to the topic, but I'm not sure its worth using as an example of the atheist opinion in general. What else do you expect from Reddit? Plus no one is forcing anyone to visit a subreddit, but we are all "forced" to deal with legislation largely catered to Christian ideals (marriage inequality is the most prudent example). Is it possible some of these pictures and comics may be intended to NOT be taken so seriously? Yeah. Is it just as likely some of them are made by moron 15 year olds? Hell yes. I see what you're saying, I just don't think the dialog on /r/atheism is much of a reason to tell atheists to "shut the **** up". If I were you I would unsubscribe to that subreddit so you don't see any posts on your front page.
I'm not going to address the first part but in terms of the second part: No, you don't. But if there's a voting process and the majority of people happen to vote against you, or you don't vote at all, then even if you disagree, the laws work against you. That's how democracy works.
Do know that it's not just "atheists" who feel there should be a separation of church vs state. The whole world isn't against you and there are even Christians and Catholics who support the rights to things like gay marriage, etc so it isn't that black and white and isn't just an atheist movement which, imo, is isolating and disregards those who happen to agree with you, even if their religious views differ. If only 5% of America (atheist) pushed for gay marriage, marijuana legalization etc, ideally, they wouldn't pass under a democracy so you aren't battling with just religion, you're battling the status quo and resistance to change. As I've stated before in this forum, most people haven't even so much as read their Bible, they're just raised in a certain culture.
In addition to that, these issues are coming up because there are people in this country who are religious and so these issues are of value to them and they're making it known by talking to their representatives. These laws don't HAVE to pass, that's where political involvement comes in. You have every right to speak out against it as well. If America is a democracy, then I'm sorry if you're offended by the laws when the majority happen to carry with them Christian values. I really, genuinely am, because the majority isn't always right on things. Even as Christians we don't always agree on interpretations of the Bible, which makes sense because though we're Christian we're human first and we don't all see life through the same lens. But the people who vote are the people who are most passionate so if it's of such strong interest: vote, get active, and get involved.
That's really all I can say to this.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I didn't say atheists were against the country, all alone. I am in a humanist group with all kinds of people, religious included. What I meant was atheists also have a right to chime in.
I appreciate those who are say Catholic (since you mentioned it) and support gay rights to marry. Especially when they are refused communion for doing so. I think their stand in principle is harder than mine. They are standing up against their own religions ideals, their church, friends. That has to be hard, I commend them but don't count solely on them to vote for me. But this isn't the topic, it's about militant atheists shutting up.
Voting, getting active and involved is exactly what atheists organizations support. Gays organize, have groups but people don't say they are trying to act straight. AA do the same but people don't say they are acting like white people. Why would atheists be told they are acting like a religion or they now have a belief in not believing? It's smelling like propaganda to me. I'm sorry, that's my opinion.
Seems silly to have to follow Jesus's wishes when you are an atheist, or a Jew, or a Muslim or gay and didn't hear the same message for that matter. So we small groups organize, get active and vote in larger numbers because this is America, and we live here, not because we've become a religion. I'm not offended by these laws just because a Christian made them and if they didn't I would agree. I'm against these laws because I'm human, live in America and don't agree with them. It's not personally against Christians, it's just a fact that Christians try and pass religious based law.
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