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Since my thread is being overtaken by this OT topic, I thought I'd go ahead and start a thread for it.
Did Paul invent Christianity? Did he say things Jesus probably would not have said? Was he "creative" with his own interpretation of what the Jewish messiah actually was supposed to be? Or was he actually divinely inspired?
If Paul did create Christianity, what do you feel his motivations were? Do you think he really believed his visions?
Sources help a lot so let me know what you've got. For reference, I do believe Paul created Christianity and that Jesus never meant to begin a new religion. Enjoy!
I don't think Paul "invented" Christianity though there are several online posts that attempt to explain it this way. I stumbled upon quite a few in the earlier stages of my searching. Here's some: The Anti-Christ Paul. The Apostle Paul Was A Deceiver
To me, it's simply that the name was given to those individuals as a way of distinguishing them from the Jews who were still waiting on the first coming of the Messiah. So it's really just a name to help make sense of it all. Christianity was never really a "religion" to begin with.
Now a lot of churches tend to draw from Paul and do so because they see him as further explaining the teachings of Jesus. Christianity became established, however, with the institution of Constantine the Great who wanted to win a war against an army twice as big as his own. Now the stories differ from here but at the end of the day, he incorporated the sign of the Cross into his armies, won the war and as a result the persecution of Christians stopped and they were acknowledged as a worthy religion.
I don't think Paul "invented" Christianity though there are several online posts that attempt to explain it this way. I stumbled upon quite a few in the earlier stages of my searching. Here's some: The Anti-Christ Paul. The Apostle Paul Was A Deceiver
To me, it's simply that the name was given to those individuals as a way of distinguishing them from the Jews who were still waiting on the first coming of the Messiah. So it's really just a name to help make sense of it all. Christianity was never really a "religion" to begin with.
Now a lot of churches tend to draw from Paul and do so because they see him as further explaining the teachings of Jesus. Christianity became established, however, with the institution of Constantine the Great who wanted to win a war against an army twice as big as his own. Now the stories differ from here but at the end of the day, he incorporated the sign of the Cross into his armies, won the war and as a result the persecution of Christians stopped and they were acknowledged as a worthy religion.
I thought Constantine worshiped the Unconquerable Sun after his little "vision" before the battle... then latter his mother (who was already a Christian from lack of choosing another religion) convinced him to convert (or fuse his god beliefs) with Christianity... He then moved to establish the Catholic Christian Church and murder his own pagan family who (among other things) refused to convert to the blood and human sacrifice cult that was Christianity in their eyes.
Here is what wikipedia has to say:
Quote:
Constantine is perhaps best known for being the first "Christian" Roman emperor.
In February 313, Constantine met with Licinius in Milan, where they developed the Edict of Milan. The edict stated that Christians should be allowed to follow the faith without oppression.[205] This removed penalties for professing Christianity, under which many had been martyred in persecutions of Christians, and returned confiscated Church property. The edict protected from religious persecution not only Christians but all religions, allowing anyone to worship whichever deity they chose. A similar edict had been issued in 311 by Galerius, then senior emperor of the Tetrarchy; Galerius' edict granted Christians the right to practice their religion but did not restore any property to them.[206] The Edict of Milan included several clauses which stated that all confiscated churches would be returned as well as other provisions for previously persecuted Christians.
Scholars debate whether Constantine adopted his mother St. Helena's Christianity in his youth, or whether he adopted it gradually over the course of his life.[207] Constantine would retain the title of pontifex maximus until his death, a title emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood, as would his Christian successors on to Gratian (r. 375–83). According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone.[208] Throughout his rule, Constantine supported the Church financially, built basilicas, granted privileges to clergy (e.g. exemption from certain taxes), promoted Christians to high office, and returned property confiscated during the Diocletianic persecution.[209] His most famous building projects include the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and Old Saint Peter's Basilica.
However, Constantine certainly did not patronize Christianity alone. After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built (315) to celebrate his triumph. The arch is most notably decorated with images of the goddess Victoria and, at the time of its dedication, sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, and Hercules were made. Most notably absent from the Arch are any depictions whatsoever regarding Christian symbolism.
Later in 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the venerable day of the sun, referencing the sun-worship that Aurelian had established as an official cult. Furthermore, and long after his oft alleged "conversion" to Christianity, Constantine's coinage continued to carry the symbols of the sun. Even after the pagan gods had disappeared from the coinage, Christian symbols appeared only as Constantine's personal attributes: the chi rho between his hands or on his labarum, but never on the coin itself.[210] Even when Constantine dedicated the new capital of Constantinople, which became the seat of Byzantine Christianity for a millennium, he did so wearing the Apollonian sun-rayed Diadem; no Christian symbols were present at this dedication.
Constantine burning Arian books
The reign of Constantine established a precedent for the position of the emperor as having great influence and ultimate regulatory authority within the religious discussions involving the early Christian councils of that time, e.g., most notably the dispute over Arianism, and the nature of God. Constantine himself disliked the risks to societal stability that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring where possible to establish an orthodoxy.[211] One way in which Constantine used his influence over the early Church councils was to seek to establish a consensus over the oft debated and argued issue over the nature of God.
Most notably, from 313–316 bishops in North Africa struggled with other Christian bishops who had been ordained by Donatus in opposition to Caecilian. The African bishops could not come to terms and the Donatists asked Constantine to act as a judge in the dispute. Three regional Church councils and another trial before Constantine all ruled against Donatus and the Donatism movement in North Africa. In 317 Constantine issued an edict to confiscate Donatist church property and to send Donatist clergy into exile.[212] More significantly, in 325 he summoned the Council of Nicaea, effectively the first Ecumenical Council (unless the Council of Jerusalem is so classified). The Council of Nicaea is most known for its dealing with Arianism and for instituting the Nicene Creed.
Constantine enforced the prohibition of the First Council of Nicaea against celebrating the Lord's Supper on the day before the Jewish Passover (14 Nisan) (see Quartodecimanism and Easter controversy). This marked a definite break of Christianity from the Judaic tradition. From then on the Roman Julian Calendar, a solar calendar, was given precedence over the lunar Hebrew Calendar among the Christian churches of the Roman Empire.[213]
Constantine made new laws regarding the Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 04-26-2013 at 02:58 AM..
Christianity became established, however, with the institution of Constantine the Great ...
Wrong! Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman Empire during Constantine's reign. It was Theodosius I who proclaimed Christianity as the official religion of the Empire in the edict of Thessalonica in 380CE.
I thought Constantine worshiped the Unconquerable Sun after his little "vision" before the battle... then latter his mother (who was already a Christian from lack of choosing another religion) convinced him to convert (or fuse his god beliefs) with Christianity... He then moved to establish the Catholic Christian Church and murder his own pagan family who (among other things) refused to convert to the blood and human sacrifice cult that was Christianity in their eyes.
That Constantine 'converted' to Christianity in 312 is Christian wishful thinking I'm afraid. Evidence for his 'conversion' comes only from Christian sources such as the old rouge and celebrated 'Liar for Jesus' Eusebius (the real one that is not our Eusebius - although there doesn't appear to be much difference between them ). In fact, after his victory at Milvian Bridge in 312CE, he had a commemorative arch built which was decorated with images of the goddess Victoria. After it was built, there were sacrifices made to the gods Apollo, and Hercules. There were no depictions whatsoever of Christianity on it.
Constantine also said that both Christians and non-Christians had to observe the 'venerable day of the sun' and long after his 'alleged' conversion to Christianity the coins of the realm carried the symbols of the sun. When Constantine dedicated Constantinople, he wore the Apollonian sun-rayed diadem. There were no Christian symbolism. It would appear that he became a 'Christian in 337CE just before he died and accepted baptism only on his death-bed. Until the day he died, he held various pagan 'titles' and 'offices' such as "pontifex maximus" which was a title emperors took as heads of the pagan priesthood.
The non-Christian evidence suggests that, although he was somewhat sympathetic towards Christianity, he wanted nothing to do with it and remained pagan until the day he died.
I wouldn't say that he invented, but rather that he started its evolution.
I find it hard to believe that a historical Jesus would have ever claimed much of what is attributed to him. Many of his teachings were solid Jewish philosophy and, while he might have been heretical in relationship to mainstream Judaism at the time, I doubt he would have ever claimed to be the incarnation of God.
I think Paul had a great hand in Christianity becoming what it is today, but many of the ideas that we associate with it today developed after his time.
Wrong! Christianity did not become the official religion of the Roman Empire during Constantine's reign. It was Theodosius I who proclaimed Christianity as the official religion of the Empire in the edict of Thessalonica in 380CE.
No it wasn't official. But it became established, ie, accepted. In fact, Constantine himself wasn't baptized until close to his death if I remember correctly. But, he did institute the Edit of Milan which called for the tolerance of Christians and other religions and it marked the beginning of the "rise" of Christianity.
No it wasn't official. But it became established, ie, accepted. In fact, Constantine himself wasn't baptized until close to his death if I remember correctly. But, he did institute the Edit of Milan which called for the tolerance of Christians and other religions and it marked the beginning of the "rise" of Christianity.
Yes, but that's not the same as "established". "Established" wasn't a good choice of words if I might say so...just sayin'
Quote:
In fact, Constantine himself wasn't baptized until close to his death if I remember correctly.
Apparently Paul was epileptic, which might have has something to do with his 'vision'.
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I thought I'd go ahead and start a thread for it.
). In fact, after his victory at Milvian Bridge in 312CE, he had a commemorative arch built which was decorated with images of the goddess Victoria. After it was built, there were sacrifices made to the gods Apollo, and Hercules. There were no depictions whatsoever of Christianity on it.
