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I don't care how you define (or avoid defining) "God", I'm an atheist because I see no reason to believe in a conscious being that created and controls our world.
I don't care about any empty pseudo-concept of "any God" that equals literally whatever inscrutable, undefined things/actions that led to our world as we know it today. This means that "God" is meaningless - it cannot be defined! A word must be defined for it to have meaning. So using this to say that the universe is "evidence for God" is saying that it's evidence for something that has no meaning (other than speculative personal beliefs, of course).
Don't get me wrong - that's not to say it's not something, but we can't define it and thus our use of the word has no meaning (other than speculative beliefs). All we can say is "things happened that ultimately caused our world to be as it is today.. but I don't know what they are."
This "evidence for God" (or rather, pseudo-god shell) is a straw man when used against atheism, because atheism does not mean denying the fact that there are unknown parts of the universe that we can't define.
So no more word games. Give me evidence for "God consciousness" - if you have it. Otherwise, you have no evidence against my atheism.
This looks like a spin -off from the naturist god thread (now being moderated).
Although I was arguing against the idea there, it isn't that I'm vehemently opposed to the idea of intelligent nature as such. Even if it was shown that there is reason to believe that there is some kind of forward - planning mind behind it all, that only moves the debate onto 'If a god - which one?' and the various denominations can try to thrash out which one is the one (or ones) we should all believe in and then I would ask 'Why?'
Ok, it's nice to know what's what, but really, so what? Accepting that there's a first cause with forward-planning abilities isn't going to get me into a church or mosque or doing anything different to what I'm doing.
However, the point of the thread is that we are a long, long way from accepting any such thing. The arguments for anything of that kind turn out - when eventially they are painfully extracted from the believer like bowels being slowly wound out of a tortured heretic - to be the usual personal conviction and blind faith.
This looks like a spin -off from the naturist god thread (now being moderated).
Although I was arguing against the idea there, it isn't that I'm vehemently opposed to the idea of intelligent nature as such. Even if it was shown that there is reason to believe that there is some kind of forward - planning mind behind it all, that only moves the debate onto 'If a god - which one?' and the various denominations can try to thrash out which one is the one (or ones) we should all believe in and then I would ask 'Why?'
Ok, it's nice to know what's what, but really, so what? Accepting that there's a first cause with forward-planning abilities isn't going to get me into a church or mosque or doing anything different to what I'm doing.
However, the point of the thread is that we are a long, long way from accepting any such thing. The arguments for anything of that kind turn out - when eventially they are painfully extracted from the believer like bowels being slowly wound out of a tortured heretic - to be the usual personal conviction and blind faith.
The evidence of "God consciousness" is indicated by the hundreds of millions of people that contemplate it.
How does contemplating a hypothetical concept make that concept true?
I guess you've proved aliens, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, etc. too then, if all it takes is for a large group of people to contemplate their existence.
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The ones that have personal evidence it exists...have their "proof"...and, of course, will discuss something of such great importance at length.
The ones who claim it doesn't exist are even better indirect/circumstantial evidence for it. In that...why would soooooo many people be soooooo consumed by something that doesn't exist, that they would spend hundreds/thousands of hours of their precious life discussing and agonizing over the matter?
I submit...it is either:
1. It does exist...and thus all are compelled to discuss/contemplate it. (Of this I am certain)
There are many atheists (and theists) that don't discuss or contemplate "God" at all, whatsoever.
Besides, compulsion to discuss/contemplate a hypothetical concept does not make the concept true.
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Moderator cut: Orphaned
Ok, in this #2 scenario, a "God consciousness" doesn't actually exist, yet hundreds of millions of theists continue to insist to atheists that it does, and the atheists simply counter those fallacious arguments - How does that make the atheist mentally ill and the theist sensible?
I don't care how you define (or avoid defining) "God", I'm an atheist because I see no reason to believe in a conscious being that created and controls our world.
I don't care about any empty pseudo-concept of "any God" that equals literally whatever inscrutable, undefined things/actions that led to our world as we know it today. This means that "God" is meaningless - it cannot be defined! A word must be defined for it to have meaning. So using this to say that the universe is "evidence for God" is saying that it's evidence for something that has no meaning (other than speculative personal beliefs, of course).
Don't get me wrong - that's not to say it's not something, but we can't define it and thus our use of the word has no meaning (other than speculative beliefs). All we can say is "things happened that ultimately caused our world to be as it is today.. but I don't know what they are."
This "evidence for God" (or rather, pseudo-god shell) is a straw man when used against atheism, because atheism does not mean denying the fact that there are unknown parts of the universe that we can't define.
So no more word games. Give me evidence for "God consciousness" - if you have it. Otherwise, you have no evidence against my atheism.
I'm with you on this subject Logic. To attribute all the unknowns about our universe, creation and life to a god or god consciousness is just pure speculation and conjecture on our parts. While I don't fall into the athiest camp, I can understand why you take that position. I am more agnostic and humble enough to admit that I just don't know one way or the other....the evidence at hand could go either way and to definitively declare non-existence over existence or vice versa seems kind of foolish to me given that we really don't know anything for certain and without any doubt whatsoever...but I respect where you're coming from anyway.
I'm with you on this subject Logic. To attribute all the unknowns about our universe, creation and life to a god or god consciousness is just pure speculation and conjecture on our parts. While I don't fall into the athiest camp, I can understand why you take that position. I am more agnostic and humble enough to admit that I just don't know one way or the other....the evidence at hand could go either way and to definitively declare non-existence over existence or vice versa seems kind of foolish to me given that we really don't know anything for certain and without any doubt whatsoever...but I respect where you're coming from anyway.
I completely agree. I too am agnostic to as to whether this "God consciousness" exists. Saying I'm atheist only means I don't believe in it - a position of skepticism. I do not mean that I am certain it doesn't exist.
I completely agree. I too am agnostic to as to whether this "God consciousness" exists. Saying I'm atheist only means I don't believe in it - a position of skepticism. I do not mean that I am certain it doesn't exist.
Non-existence is as good as existence. We have to go the wholeness in the Hole.
I completely agree. I too am agnostic to as to whether this "God consciousness" exists. Saying I'm atheist only means I don't believe in it - a position of skepticism. I do not mean that I am certain it doesn't exist.
But if I lose the ego for Consciousness, I become... AAAh, God exists.
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