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Old 06-07-2013, 02:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes it is quite a bit more significant . . . just as it is in life. It is aware of itself but then it will not be subject to decay or any kind of transformation.
You dodged my question above - probably because it was too hard for yuo to answer - but I have to ask the same one here. Aside from repetition what are you basis the claim that your energy after death remains "aware of itself"?
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monumentus View Post
You dodged my question above - probably because it was too hard for yuo to answer - but I have to ask the same one here. Aside from repetition what are you basis the claim that your energy after death remains "aware of itself"?
Awareness requires some type of senses, which requires organs, which requires a body. This claim of self-awareness after death is contrary to everything scientific and can be considered hogwash until significant, verifiable, objective evidence is produced.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:13 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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The theory is that a cosmic 'stuff' has itself the capacity to create or form consciousness -or to allow it to emerge. This is suggested to be Dark matter and that is actually a plausible suggestion.

The odd thing is that this is what I'd tend to suggest, too - that consciousness is inherent in matter (or the basic stuff of which matter is made) and evidence can and does 'emerge' in the same way that atoms of water that are not wet in themselves have the quality of wetness when there are enough of them and atoms that cannot work out how to get into a paper bag of cereal can do it very well when enough of them get together in the form of a rodent.

The reason why I resist the application of the 'God' -label to what I would call 'Nature' is in the only difference I can see - that nature-as -god rather than 'creative nature' is in the intention and plan for where the created forms are going to end up. This is what I call the forward -planning that is what I regard as the only real distinction between 'God' and 'Nature'.

I have seen no sound evidence for this 'forward planning' presented. ID had the best stab at proving it but that was shown to be unsound science. Therefore Nature = God has no scientific, evidential or rational case and is purely faith -based.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
The theory is that a cosmic 'stuff' has itself the capacity to create or form consciousness -or to allow it to emerge. This is suggested to be Dark matter and that is actually a plausible suggestion.
Not to me it is not. Given Dark Matter has not been observed or quantified and it is a complete unknown placeholder used in science to refer to things like equations not balancing. Suggesting it has anything to do with consciousness whatsoever is not a "plausible suggestion" so much as it is "a random and entirely unsubstantiated stab in the dark".

I have seen no evidence, argument, data or reasoning ever to suggest that whatever the full explanation for our consciousness turns out to be that it requires reference to anything outside the already observed wet stuff and energy movements within our skulls. I see no requirement to reference to anything outside it, let alone to wishy washy science terms that refer to something we have absolutely no idea of the nature of.

I am not even sure what "Consciousness is inherent in matter" is even meant to mean here. It is an open question but anything I know on the subject suggests it to be less inherent in matter and more an emergent property of the patterns energy and matter have been put into.

Whether one calls any of this "god" or "nature" or "oogly-bioggy-buggely" is irrelevant to me. That is just an exercise in linguistics and word re-definitions. My issue lies only with those people who... having performed their little linguistic back flips.... then try to append all kinds of unsubstantiated nonsense on to the end of their definition such as this "god" is itself conscious, judges us morally, or appears in human form to bring us wishy washy moral messages of love, or that when we die it judges us morally, or that our consciousness survives the death of the brain in any way.
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:40 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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As I understand it, there is mathematical evidence that the universe contains (or should contain) a massive amount of matter which doesn't appear to be there. This Hypothetical 'Dark matter' is therefore postulated and is considered worth looking for with the same expectation of the Higgs -boson particle being found.

If it is found and if it does indeed comprise a huge preponderance of cosmic matter then it can be plausibly regarded as the building blocks of matter.

How this can be regarded -not as 'consciousness', buit the building material of conscious forms just as it is not bioforms but is the building material of biofons, after a long emergent and evolutionary process.

This does hypothesize that human consciousness is of the same stuff as animal consciousness, just as our bodies are the same stuff.

It is hard to deny that the clever tricks of dogs, dolphins and elephants are of the same mental - consciousness 'stuff' as that of beavers, bats and bumblebees, though not of the same order. Thus we can trace it back to life -forms where the function of this consciousness is little more than a survival -oriented motor -mechanism.

The link between biochemistry and minerals is the virus - and viruses are capable of evolution, too. Therefore I suggest that the processes that give rise to 'consciousness' are the same that cause a crystal to grow, a chemical to ignite and substance to heat up. This traces back (hypothetically) all the way to the basic material of creation and thus to the Big bang -and probably beyond.

This is what I tend to regard as the most plausible model of evolution of life and consciousness. It has no need for any sorta god - let alone a personal god with a religion, Holy Book and procession of men in smocks. I am happy to see it disproved and a better one produced. So far I have not seen anything that came close.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-07-2013 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 06-07-2013, 11:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
As I understand it, there is mathematical evidence that the universe contains (or should contain) a massive amount of matter which doesn't appear to be there.
Matter is one possibility. There are many others. The term "Dark Matter" is a bad one because it leads the lay man to think it IS matter. It could be all kinds of things. An error in our existing equations. A constant we did not know about. An interaction between particles not before observed. Or many many many other things.

Suffice to say/repeat however... there is certainly nothing whatsoever to suggest it... what ever it is... has much to do with consciousness.... let alone externalising consciousness from our brain in such a way as to feed those who wish to believe it survives the death of that brain or there is any kind of "after life" involving our awareness.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Awareness requires some type of senses, which requires organs, which requires a body. This claim of self-awareness after death is contrary to everything scientific and can be considered hogwash until significant, verifiable, objective evidence is produced.
You are comparing the requirements to produce awareness with what has already been produced. Once awareness is produced it does not become unaware . . . just not directly accessible to the production process (us) . . . i.e., unconscious.
(BTW since you quoted Monumentus . . . let me remind him that I do not see any of his posts unless someone else quotes them because he is on ignore.)
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:14 PM
 
Location: USA
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I'm 65 years old. So the "afterlife" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) is what the rest of you will be doing after my life is over. And so on, and so on.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:47 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Matter is one possibility. There are many others. The term "Dark Matter" is a bad one because it leads the lay man to think it IS matter. It could be all kinds of things. An error in our existing equations. A constant we did not know about. An interaction between particles not before observed. Or many many many other things.
Quite. I didn't choose the term. Big Bang is also a misnomer...not to mention the 'God' particle.

Quote:
Suffice to say/repeat however... there is certainly nothing whatsoever to suggest it... what ever it is... has much to do with consciousness.... let alone externalising consciousness from our brain in such a way as to feed those who wish to believe it survives the death of that brain or there is any kind of "after life" involving our awareness.
It all depends on the way we think of consciousness. If we think of it as an activity that goes on in our heads and to a lesser extent in animal heads then yes, I see no valid reason to suggest that it is all linked in some cosmic sized intelligent ..field..I can't avoid the term....which is of the same order as our intelligence and indeed far beyond. That is pure speculation and with no sound evidence to back it up.

On the other hand, evolved human intelligence traced back - just as natural selection - through animal forms and through abiogenesis theory and (logically) back through biochemicals and to molecules and right back to the Big Bang and beyond is all of the same 'stuff' as life and consciousness. But of course 'consciousness' is hardly the term to use when we get down to worms and bacteria. They do no more than react and ingest. The cut -off point is rather arbitrary and to suggest that the 'stuff' that leads (in time) to consciousness ceases to be the same 'stuff' is the fallacy of the beard.
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Old 06-08-2013, 06:57 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,668,494 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You are comparing the requirements to produce awareness with what has already been produced. Once awareness is produced it does not become unaware . . . just not directly accessible to the production process (us) . . . i.e., unconscious.
(BTW since you quoted Monumentus . . . let me remind him that I do not see any of his posts unless someone else quotes them because he is on ignore.)
Please do the same to me, since you seem to do this to those who hold your feet to the fire when you make the unsubstantiated claims you make and are unwilling to answer questions about them. Your posts mean nothing to me any longer, so I, as I'm sure is the case with monumentus, will were your "ignore" as a badge of honor. Actually, a better solution is for me to put you on ignore until you find the courage to answer questions.
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