I don't believe in God, but I wish I did. (punishment, pray)

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Basiliximab

I feel that it is a good thing (for me) and you don't.

And for many other people too. Why even our courts are awash with examples of why. Parents watching their own children die of perfectly treatable ailments for the sole reason they think attending a doctor is an offense against god.

As I said, the more divorced from reality a world view is then more potential for harm it contains. As that beautiful 11 year old girl discovered to her fatal detriment. That is no "blessed delusion" but a horrific and harmful one and I hope the parents suffer the full force of justice that is available for such a crime.

Would that such examples could be rare, but alas they are far from it.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

One of the things recognized as being helpful in the grieving process is memories of the lost loved ones. Memories fade over time. As such the very tools that we need to cope... are the tools that brushing our pain under the carpet will lead to eroding.

I do not see hope for an afterlife as mutually exclusive with remembering the loved one nor do I see it as promoting disassociation or repression of memories. Perhaps there is some aspect of its influence I don't understand.

What I do see belief in an afterlife doing that's unsavory is preventing people from dealing in any meaningful way with the fact or of their own mortality -- or that of their loved ones, living or dead. The whole superstructure of afterlife beliefs is intended to deny that humans are mortal. Once you're dead, what you believed in life is irrelevant as you will have no opinions on the matter, but while you're alive, properly ordering your own priorities and properly valuing your life and the lives of others requires that you understand the finite nature of those lives.

However, as a consultant by trade I understand the dictum originally formulated by Gerald Weinberg, "things are the way they are because they got that way". Meaning in this case, if someone has come to believe that
their mortality must be denied, this is the end result of a causal chain which must be respected. You can't simply bludgeon them with their mortality until they acquiesce to it. They must first see their true (in)significance, and must let go of their ego investment in a self-absorbed set of assumptions that life is all about them and that it is a stage upon which they are the lead actor. This is a journey of self awareness that not everyone chooses to make, and forcing the choice is not going to lead to any real epiphany or change. Unless the forcing is done by the circumstances of life, as it was in my case, as one can't blame blind happenstance for having an agenda.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Whose pain am I _really_ trying to mediate by lying? Theirs? Or selfishly my own?

Both are in the mix. I think you can have real empathy for suffering and allow people their crutches even if incidentally this also makes you more comfortable and avoids your being misunderstood. For my part? I'm aware that I am both helping (short term) and hurting them (long term). It's a little like meeting a psychotic person and talking them down from a ledge or getting them the Put The Gun Down. Sometimes you are forced to appeal to their delusions and irrational ideations.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

And if the morphine injected holds long enough it _might_ wear off after the pain goes. But for a wound of any great size if you treat it with nothing but instant pain relief... then the pain when it wears off will be greater not less.

By this reasoning we would never give analgesics. I see them as helping someone over a hump, and sometimes, interrupting a vicious, self-reinforcing cycle of pain / anxiety / more pain and sometimes inflammation / more pain.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I myself have witnessed the effect on those where the illusion did NOT hold. Not only did they go through the grieving process all over again but they A) went through the parts they did not the first time around and B) suffered more from the parts they did worse than the first time.

Thanatology teaches us that grief is more of a spiral than a linear progression and everyone revisits their grief over and over. It's not a matter of getting it over with, it's a matter of your psyche spoon feeding your "new normal" to you in digestible amounts.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I have before my own eyes seen the broken hulk of a person lamenting on their second round of grief... because the illusion did not hold.... crying out things like "I can not even see their face in my mind any more!!!!!". Something that they would have had in their arsenal of coping had they dealt with grief in the proper time and place.

I have not had the experience of grief being delayed to that extent but I'm sure it happens. I think that most afterlife believers doubt the afterlife at some level, sufficiently that contrary to that gloating and untrue statement in the Bible that believers "do not grieve as those who have no hope", I think they grieve at about the same rate and they achieve some kind of psychological equilibrium before they stop. In my experience the equilibrium is about the same because it's not actually that helpful in the here-and-now to be deprived of the loved one. The comfort of eventual reunion is actually quite minor, for all their flailing and clinging to it. For example, one of those Arizona firefighters was a newlywed. His widow can't possibly find the idea of living another 50 years without him much different a reality because she will be reunited with him at the end of that time. It's especially pointless in that she knows at some level she will remarry eventually anyway.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

As I said I understand the emotional pulls to let people live a lie in order to mediate their moment to moment pain. But I question the moral correctness of making that choice, the harms that choice can cause, the things it leaves people living a lie open to, and whether one is really doing it for their benefit or ones own.

You and me both. As a practical matter if a grieving Christian actually asked me, an unbeliever, for advice, I'd be gently truthful with them about my own beliefs. In practice, a Christian who knows me to be an unbeliever will assume I have nothing to offer and will not ask. From there, do I want to be the one to rain on their party? Do I attend the funeral and at the pot luck afterwards say, "of course, you realize your'e never going to see them again?" I think that would be pointless even if no one would find it in incredibly bad taste.

I guess in practice this won't come up too often. The closest I came was with my eldest brother when he found out he was going to die of bone cancer, and soon. He expressed the inevitable "why me" and "what did I do wrong" questions you can expect from a devout and ethical lifelong practicing / believing Christian in such a situation. I simply said to him, "You're asking the wrong guy those kinds of questions. I don't believe it's your fault, it is just something that has happened." It didn't scratch his itch, but then neither did his soon-to-be-widow have to throw me out of the house for crazy talk. I wasn't going to try to undo some 55 years of mindset by explicitly telling him he's not going to heaven and no god is going to see to his widow's welfare in his absence.

[CSD610]

Originally Posted by kgordeeva

I started having doubts about the existence of God about 10 years ago.. I just couldn't believe in something I couldn't see. I also didn't think there could be a God with so much bad stuff in the world.

Well, now I kind of wish I had some kind of faith. I'm scared of dying and losing the people around me. Would having some kind of faith give me some comfort and peace? I also can't imagine dying and being at all. There has to be something after death, right?

I'm just so confused and don't know what to think. I don't believe what religion represents, so I don't think I'd ever be a church goer.. but I wish I had some kind of faith.

Any advice?

Religion sometimes can skew one's outlook but knowing God exists is very different than following a specific religion. The awareness of God is simply faith, knowing without hesitation or doubt that God does exist no matter what the world presents you with. Terrible things happen everyday but with humans having free will it is their choice as to what their actions are, no God's. You have to ask God to come into your life, he does not seek you, you have to seek him.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by mordant

I do not see hope for an afterlife as mutually exclusive with remembering the loved one

I never said it was. I fear you may have misread what I wrote.

What IS mutually exclusive I am saying is time and those important memories. TIME erodes memories and many people reach a point where they can not bring the memories or the faces to their minds any more.

I for example lost someone incredibly special to me when I was 16. The girl I had been in love with and together with since age 12. I can not see her face in my mind today and photos of her are rare _at best_. Despite being one of the most important people ever in my entire life, I can not any more actually remember what her face looked like.

Brushing grief under the carpet by covering it in lies is one way to let time pass, and letting time pass erodes those tools that are recognized as being used in the grieving process.

So then when the grieving process does kick in... either because faith in this after life con fails.... or it simply explodes out from the places it was temporarily hidden and repressed in... then the person in question is in a much worse place than before.

Originally Posted by mordant

You can't simply bludgeon them with their mortality until they acquiesce to it.

No but we can be part of the existing NEW causal chain that is heading towards the erosion of faith. We can keep reminding people that these claims are unsubstantiated nonsense. You can call this "Bludgeoning" if you like but I do not see it that way. I see it as one aspect of an ongoing conversation where the voice of reason is getting spread and heard and I am more than happy to keep pointing out unsubstantiated or false claims where and where I see them.

Perhaps some day our species will reach a point where it has matured enough to face the issue of mortality without running behind adult versions of fairy tales to hide from it. If that day is to come ever, then I am happy to play a small part in it here today.

Originally Posted by mordant

I'm aware that I am both helping (short term) and hurting them (long term).

And that is likely where we diverge because it is at that realization that I therefore no longer see the utility of engaging in the former, given the latter. I am harming them for no other reason than to give them temporary reprieve. And often the only reason we give them temporary reprieve is not even for their sake, but ours to alleviate our discomfort quickly at seeing them in pain. Rather than make the HARD and USEFUL and not LAZY choice of facing their pain and grief with them and guiding them through it rather than into places to hide from it.

The argument for religion as a crutch during things like grief pre-supposes that it is the only tool available and that if you remove it you are left with nothing else. There are many ways to deal with grief. Taking the crutch away does not mean leaving the user to topple over.

And so far I have only talked about the "harm" caused by delaying the grieving process. That is only ONE of the harms related to this issue. There are others. For example not only is it delaying the process by selling woo and lies to people about the after life.... we then leave those people prone to other things surrounding those woo and lies. For example the charlatan industry of mediums who claim to be able to contact people in the after life. By selling these lies one opens the mark up to be further lied to and exploited by others. One lays the foundation for this and is as culpable as the fraud who swindles their money around a table with a few flashey lights, a crystal ball, a smoke machine, and a few voices.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by CSD610

Religion sometimes can skew one's outlook but knowing God exists is very different than following a specific religion.

To my ear that sounds no different to any other unsubstantiated claim. How is "knowing god exists" any different to just "knowing people are abducted by aliens" or just "knowing elvis is still alive" or just "knowing that I am Napoleon re-incarnated" (A surprisingly common delusion) or "just knowing I can fly".

There was also a guy on this forum not so long ago who "just knew" he had the power to alter reality with his mind. But he could not prove it to you because if he altered reality then you alter with it and believe reality was always that way. He "Just knew" he was right and had this power. But he could not turn the sky blue to prove his point because you would then just say "But the sky was ALWAYS blue what are you talking about????"

The phrase "Just knowing" says nothing at all and plays on my ear more like a cop out than anything else. When we feel we "know" something but that knowledge appears not to map onto reality in any way whatsoever then this should quickly give us pause.

Rather than giving pause to people however they instead decided to celebrate and relish their own delusions and praise it as a virtue in others. The delusions in other words make us act in ways that promote the delusion in others, much like a virus promotes the kind of behavior that will promote the infection of others.

[Oleg Bach]

Put it this way - a second is a thousand years and a thousand years but a second...You have died and you are in heaven..believe or not believe...it does not matter much...I am sure that the all mighty source and force of all really does not care if you believe or not- Enjoy the angels holiday on earth called life.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

What IS mutually exclusive I am saying is time and those important memories. TIME erodes memories and many people reach a point where they can not bring the memories or the faces to their minds any more.

Well I guess the critical question, is, does a person fully engage the grief and loss process while they have those memories. I have never thought personal belief in an afterlife would act significantly against that but thank you for sharing your experience of that as it changes my thoughts on the matter.

As one who has done my share of grieving, the constant impatient desire of Other People for you to "move on already" is more of an immediate problem -- except, I'll grant you, that many of those people who care more about their discomfort than yours are encouraged to be jack-a's by their belief in an afterlife, as one of their tactics can be, "don't you believe they are in a better place??" They question your faith if you "sorrow as those who have no hope".

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

I for example lost someone incredibly special to me when I was 16. The girl I had been in love with and together with since age 12. I can not see her face in my mind today and photos of her are rare _at best_. Despite being one of the most important people ever in my entire life, I can not any more actually remember what her face looked like.

I am truly sorry for your loss. I would not exactly say that significant others in my life who are lost to me either through death or circumstances can't be conjured in my memory but the intensity and reality and "there-ness" of the memories is certainly gone. All of life beyond a certain window, maybe 10 years, seems dream-like and abstract, like it happened in a story rather than to me personally. Perhaps it's a mercy or we'd never come fully back to the present. But it still sucks. My late wife's greatest fear was to be forgotten; there is no one to bear witness to her existence but me and some octogenarian relatives who will soon be gone. But the process starts before the survivors die, to be sure ... I live in a different state, a different house, have new relationships, dogs, everything. I haven't experienced these past 7 years WITH her and so the reality of her existence is increasingly and piquantly elusive. If I had in any way evaded the grieving process, I can see where it would really be coming back to bite me now.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

No but we can be part of the existing NEW causal chain that is heading towards the erosion of faith. We can keep reminding people that these claims are unsubstantiated nonsense. You can call this "Bludgeoning" if you like but I do not see it that way. I see it as one aspect of an ongoing conversation where the voice of reason is getting spread and heard and I am more than happy to keep pointing out unsubstantiated or false claims where and where I see them.

Perhaps some day our species will reach a point where it has matured enough to face the issue of mortality without running behind adult versions of fairy tales to hide from it. If that day is to come ever, then I am happy to play a small part in it here today.

True enough. I don't really disagree with you and perhaps it's a failure of character on my part that I'm not particularly desirous of being the messenger that gets shot in the defense of other people's illusions. It is a battle I generally don't pick but truth be told I don't know that I've been in the actual moral dilemma more than a handful of times and even then I probably spoke volumes by what I didn't say. I am not capable of participating overtly in the charade at least.

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

By selling these lies one opens the mark up to be further lied to and exploited by others. One lays the foundation for this and is as culpable as the fraud who swindles their money around a table with a few flashy lights, a crystal ball, a smoke machine, and a few voices.

Good point, although I tend to overlook this particular issue because in my church days I was inculcated with such a strong sense of taboo about spiritism that I tend to forget that others would be vulnerable to it. In other words my church taught that no one is allowed to try to pierce the veil and communicate with the dead and that any apparent communication is a deception (if not human, than fiendish). One of those rare cases of "two wrongs made a right" because, albeit for the wrong reasons, I actually always did think that spiritism was bunk, both before and after I believed in an afterlife.

But to your point ... yes, we have a responsibility to spread reason but at my age I no longer feel obligated to save the rest of the world from itself. Joe Christian is involved too, and plays a willing role in his own delusion. I am not going to accommodate and feed his delusion but neither am I going to do his work for him and crusade against it in ways that take me out of my own present moment and enjoyment. My $0.02 in that regard is engaging in places like this where Joe Christian is actually asking for it. In meatspace, not so much. I have to function as a neighbor, employer, and citizen and that is more of a live and let live, don't ask/don't tell proposition in practice, so long as Joe Christian doesn't knock on my door and proselytize.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach

Put it this way - a second is a thousand years and a thousand years but a second...You have died and you are in heaven..believe or not believe...it does not matter much...I am sure that the all mighty source and force of all really does not care if you believe or not- Enjoy the angels holiday on earth called life.

A neat demonstration of "deepities". A deepity being where you throw together words that sound deep and meaningful but upon exploration are anything but. You have strung together a lot of words that individually all make sense but together say nothing at all.

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by mordant

Well I guess the critical question, is, does a person fully engage the grief and loss process while they have those memories.

Professional opinion is that they should. These are the tools we use in the grieving process and clearly they are best used while we have them. If we lose them with time then this places some importance on using them sooner rather than later. As I said before, when the tornadoes hit for example they air lifted child psychologists in literally on day 1 to help the grieving process of children who had just lost parents to the disaster. All based on the professional opinion that the sooner you get dealing the better.

Originally Posted by mordant

I have never thought personal belief in an afterlife would act significantly against that

It does not have sole purview over influencing it. I think ANYTHING that delays coping with the grieving process is a bad thing. Afterlife belief is just one example. There are others. Many people for example go into kinds of denial that the person is dead at all. What we call "Coping Mechanisms", be it denial, belief in the after life, or other, are fine for alleviating pain in the short term but as you can see I believe this does more harm than good in the long term.

Originally Posted by mordant

As one who has done my share of grieving, the constant impatient desire of Other People for you to "move on already" is more of an immediate problem

That is part of the problem yes. People do not want to suffer by proxy or to have to deal with the person being in pain so they will say and do whatever it takes to make the problem go away. Or at least go away from them. Things like the afterlife are lies we can use to simply shut the grieving people up and improve our own day. Which is why I question their application at all.

I am far from unsympathetic to the motivations here. I have been around grieving people and the pull to just do or say anything to help their pain in that moment is massive. You see pain in someone and every altruistic gene in your body lights up with the desire to do something, anything, to alleviate it.

But that is life. We are confronted time and time again with the choice between placating something in the moment or making a choice for the long term. Parenting is a good example of this where when a child has a tantrum do we deal with the behavior there and then or do we do what we can to placate the child and stop the screaming in that moment. Most people seemingly gravitate towards the latter and the child is made happy there and then, but learns that such behavior brings reward and success.

This is not your failure. Or mine. It is just a latent characteristic of our species.

Originally Posted by mordant

at my age I no longer feel obligated to save the rest of the world from itself.

Then leave it to me and my generation and stay out of our way :-p

[Hawkins]

Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo

Exactly. Hard to find evidence for something that does not exist isn't it?

If there is nothing, no reason at all, to believe X I am not sure why people go around believing X. It is a constant mystery to me.

It's a matter of how truth can be conveyed, and efficient humans can approach a truth.

Basically, history as a whole has no evidence. It's all tired up to a human witness called the *historian*. Similarly, any piece of news (think about any news before the creation of photos and video, or go to a museum to grap a newspaper of 150 years ago then ask will you believe what is said in the newspaper) can be that it's never evidenced. It's all tired up to yet another human witness called the *reporter*.

Truth sometimes (most of the times) can only be conveyed this way (such as history), or at least it can only be efficiently approached this way (such as today's news).

Even science is conveyed this way, that is, rely on faith to a human witness rather than getting the evidence. Do you have any evidence that the earth is actually revolving around the sun, or you just conveniently choose to believe what it is said and delivered from yet another human witness called the *scientist*.


Now what is the effect of the creation of videos and photos meaning to the process of news reporting (a human witnessing process). It enhance the effect of this witnessing process. But in nature, it's still a human witnessing process. That is, you can still doubt the source of the video or photo and to question if it is faked. You cannot completely untired from your trust/faith on the human witness (called the *reporter*).

Then before the creation of videos and photos, how can one *enhance* a human witnessing process ? That is, how can one make what he writes to be more believeable ? Sacrifice himself for what is written, that could be the only efficient way.

You can randomly name a historical figure in your history, then show us the evidence that he ever existed. Without referencing what was written down by another human, most likely you get none!