Prophets = people with DMT experiences???

[Phil P]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Well, I'd say that since it can't be proven which of "these people's visions" were induced by DMT and which weren't, we've pretty much got to lump them all together. How do we accurately determine that one prophet's visions were divine manifestations and another prophet's were not?

That would be determined on whether they actually had visions or not. After that, it would depend upon whether you believe visions would be sent from a divine being.

Originally Posted by NightBazaar

Dosage in the brain would be extremely tiny amounts compared to much larger amounts found in some plants or synthesized form.

- So, what exactly does DMT found naturally in the brain actually do? What's the purpose or contribution of it?
- What basis do you have to say that "DMT is the most powerful psychedelic chemical known to man"?

The only things I've found about tends to be speculation on New Age type websites.



I don't think anyone can make a direct connection between DMT and people who see certain things or "beings" (visions, hallucination), although I suppose if there was a severe chemical imbalance of DMT produced in the body, hallucinations could occur. The point is that there are numerous other explanations of what can trigger hallucinations, such as dreams, traumatic events, even plain old imagination. Just because someone might see certain beings like Medusa is not evidence that there's a direct relationship with DMT. DMT may be one thing that can cause it, but it's not the only thing.



Once again, you're proposing that the visions ALL these people saw were induced by DMT. Your proposal for this is based on what?

Originally Posted by NightBazaar

However, one problem is that the amount of DMT naturally released in the body is miniscule in comparison that which is typically ingested, whether smoked, chewed, inhaling powder, or whatever. The other problem is, as you note, that scientific research on the subject is virtually non-existant as to exactly what function natural DMT that's released in the brain actually serves. It might contribute to dreams, but that's speculation because it might work in some completely different way.

What was unclear in your OP was the statement that DMT is the most powerful psychedelic known to man. That's a mighty bold claim. So, I'll ask again. What basis do you have to support such a claim? References please.

As for reading the personal experiences others have had, I've read plenty, long before this thread. Nothing new there. However, I do understand how the idea came into your heard. It's a subject that's been questioned many times by other people. The thing is that the descriptions you refer to has to do with descriptions following the intake of significantly larger amounts than what is naturally released in the brain. Even descriptions of "trips" can be pretty murcky and embellished. Although the effects differ in some ways than other psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, Salvia-D, etc., the amounts typically ingested are high enough to produce vivid hallucinations, so it's hard to make a comparison of effects between synthetic or organic DMT and DMT that is naturally produced in the brain. While it's the same chemical compound, the quantities are vastly different. In any case, I'd be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that DMT is the most powerful psychedelic known to man.

As for ancient religion, I believe that ingested substances, such as mushrooms or acacia caused the spark. Reason 1. why i think this: someone once said is it more probable that some early human came up with the idea of a metaphysical realm that we go to after we die and meet these incredible beings that we have never seen here, or that some early human just ate a mushroom?

Reason 2. why I think this is that cave paintings around the world have universal symbols, regardless of when they were made or where. These symbols strongly correlate to experience accounts of people on psychedelics. The labyrinth and zigzag chevron lines are two examples.

However, as we approach modern times, you would think that if someone ingested a psychedelic substance, they would reference it? And people can have psychedelic experiences without substances. I heard the Kalahari bushmen dance around a fire for ten hours and then fall down into a trance. This could be similar to visions seen after all night prayer meetings or something like that.

Again, I don't know if this trance is cause by delirium or DMT, which seem to be the only two ways a person can hallucinate without ingesting substances. Although you do make a point though Night Bazaar that natural DMT in the body is minuscule compared to ingested DMT required for an experience. However, it is odd that people, such as Frank, do see visions similar to those who are on DMT. And I don't know what other kind of substance would have produced a vision like that for Frank, with that short of a trip time? Delirium, while it is out of the ordinary, produces very different effects, although it is easy to see how someone could interpret delirious visions for divine ones.

And about my claim that DMT is the most potent psychedelic, after more research, it seems like any psychedelic can be extremely potent, it just depends on the dose.

One final question: why does society see spiritual encounters as a positive thing, but substance induced encounters as a overwhelmingly negative thing?

[NightBazaar]

Originally Posted by Phil P

As for ancient religion, I believe that ingested substances, such as mushrooms or acacia caused the spark. Reason 1. why i think this: someone once said is it more probable that some early human came up with the idea of a metaphysical realm that we go to after we die and meet these incredible beings that we have never seen here, or that some early human just ate a mushroom?

Thanks for the input Phil. I would agree in the sense that ingested substances, regardless whether DMT or other substances, would be much more plausible to stimulate what appear to be fantastic visions than the DMT that's naturally produced in the body. I don't think there's any question that plants containing psychedelic properties have been known for longer than anyone would care to guess. Perhaps some 10,000 years ago, if not longer. We know that cannabis has been used for thousands of years, and we know that the oracles of Greece were stoned to the gills from inhaling fumes from cannabis, probably in heated metal bowls (ancient vaporizers?), which caused "visions". It's pretty safe to assume that such things had been in use much earlier. Someone had to be the first to be exposed to it and the effects.
Psychoactive drug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
History of smoking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Someone at some unknown point in antiquity tried it out, perhaps thinking it might be a potential food source, but found that it put their brain into laa-laa land. That would've been a mighty powerful and unexpected effect, one that could have easily been thought of as having discovered some unknown alternate reality and gateway to the divine. There wouldn't have been much of any other way back then to know what else it could have been.

I can't disagree that it could well have been a major contributor to ancient religions. It's entirely possible. But it's probably not the only thing that made a contribution. People would certainly have had no idea what caused things like lightning and thunder, which would've been very frightening, or what causes wind that can break branches and cause tall trees to fall over, or what sort of invisible things could cause people to become sick and die with no sign of having been injured by anything. People didn't know. They also would have been aware that some animals can be very large. They may well have extended that over to thinking there might also be very large, powerful but invisible entities that exist. Add a little psychedelia to the mix and you could have the beginnings of a shamanistic and animistic practices, the beginnings of a ritualized proto-religion.

Although it's possible that ingested substances made a contribution, we'd also have to include the human ability to imagine things.

Originally Posted by Phil P

Reason 2. why I think this is that cave paintings around the world have universal symbols, regardless of when they were made or where. These symbols strongly correlate to experience accounts of people on psychedelics. The labyrinth and zigzag chevron lines are two examples.

However, as we approach modern times, you would think that if someone ingested a psychedelic substance, they would reference it? And people can have psychedelic experiences without substances. I heard the Kalahari bushmen dance around a fire for ten hours and then fall down into a trance. This could be similar to visions seen after all night prayer meetings or something like that.

I'm not so sure that cave paintings with symbolic patterns necessarily correlates to psychedelic accounts, even if some seems similar. The thing is that part of our human nature involves recognizing patterns, especially simple patterns. Keep in mind that much of the work of the prehistoric artists were very simple in comparison to works that came much later. They weren't babies, but they didn't have the skills and experience that came later with artists with fine art. Certainly some of the figures, like depictions of animals, can be understood though. It just wasn't as refined.

Yes, I would think there'd be some reference indicating psychedelic use. In fact there is, as I mentioned about at least some of the oracles of Greece. Psychedelics are not a modern phenomenon. It's likely that human imagination plays a big part of it. Let me give you an example. Children with no exposure to psychedelics are quite able to creatively spin imaginary stories by piecing together things from memory that they've heard and learned from adults.

As for bushmen dancing around a fire for 10 hours, or all-night prayer meetings and falling down in a trance, that's pretty a long stint. Who wouldn't feel like they're in a trance or at least zoned out and foggy-minded? As for the all-night prayer meetings, I honestly think a lot of it also involves an unconscious desire to be part of and accepted by a group by doing what others in the group do. Some of those rituals can understandably be pretty exhausting.

Originally Posted by Phil P

Again, I don't know if this trance is cause by delirium or DMT, which seem to be the only two ways a person can hallucinate without ingesting substances. Although you do make a point though Night Bazaar that natural DMT in the body is minuscule compared to ingested DMT required for an experience. However, it is odd that people, such as Frank, do see visions similar to those who are on DMT. And I don't know what other kind of substance would have produced a vision like that for Frank, with that short of a trip time? Delirium, while it is out of the ordinary, produces very different effects, although it is easy to see how someone could interpret delirious visions for divine ones.

Okay, so Frank had a vision. So what? What make you think Frank was not exposed to any other similar behaviors or had learned about it one way or another? Keep in mind that we human beings are for the most part very social creatures. We usually have a need to be part of a society, whether it's a primative society or a more complex society. We see things, we hear things and we learn about things from other people, or at the very least from our surroundings. I wouldn't doubt that there's a lot of hormonal activity going on that puts people into a trance, but I would also suspect there are a lot of other things going on as well, like exhaustion.

Is it odd that Frank's "visions" were similar to a DMT trip? Not necessarily. How long or short a trip might be has no bearing on what the peak is like. Was it somilar to a DMT trip to Frank or did it seem similar to you havng heard Frank's account? There could be any number of reasons why his "visions" were as they were, some of which I just mentioned.

Originally Posted by Phil P

And about my claim that DMT is the most potent psychedelic, after more research, it seems like any psychedelic can be extremely potent, it just depends on the dose.

And you're exactly right. Most of the heavy psychedelics can be pretty potent no matter how you look at it. Where DMT differed from others is it's short duration. During the 1960s it was called the "Businessman's Trip", because descriptions were that it generally lasted about 30 minutes, a 5-minute rush until your brain explodes, and then spending about 25 minutes coming down putting it back together again . Just to be clear, I've never tried it nor have I ever wanted to, especially because of the descriptions.

Not all psychedelics do the same thing. For example (again from the 60s), STP, which is actually DOM, has a very long duration, some have said like an intense LSD trip but lasting a couple of days or longer drifting around in laa-laa land.
2,5-Dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Phil P

One final question: why does society see spiritual encounters as a positive thing, but substance induced encounters as a overwhelmingly negative thing?

This is just my opinion, but i think it may have merit. Some societies see spiritual encounters as a positive thing, but I think some societies see it as delusional. The same thing applies to substance induced encounters. Some see it as negative, but others may see it as positive. In societies like the USA, a lot of people see psychedelics as negative because some people can have a pretty bad experience from it. Timothy Leery advocated dumping LSD into the water systems in the US. He was pretty off-the-wall, but the idea of it wasn't cool at all. His comment was aimed more at the government, Harvard University which fired him and Richard Alpert for their highly unorthodoxed experiments with LSD, and his antiestablishment views.

On the other hand, some societies accept the use of certain psychedelics for religious reasons. Shamans of various tribes in Central and South America use diferent types of psychedelics. In the US, peyote is legal for use by the Native American Church, and DMT is legal for a few churches from Brazil for religious and spiritual reasons. For anyone else though, it's no, no, no.

All I'm saying is that it depends on the culture (society) and how you look at it as to whether or not it's negative or positive.

[Phil P]

I'm going to bring this back up again . We just learned in Humanities class that the mayan queen would fast for extended periods of time and then cut her tongue with thorns. Why the heck would she do this? to introduce shock from which she saw visions. The carvings of the Maya are the visions that she saw. This is just one more example of a culture going to hallucinating, whether through delerium or Near Death Experiences, as the basis of religion.

[SeekerSA]

Phil, I can remember the last church I attended had these 40 day fasts and even back then I knew that starvation leads to states of delirium. These were supposed to be ways to get "closer to god". I think if they suggested pot, they may have had more participants. It is a dangerous practice and simply goes to show they will attempt anything to try and make the fantasy real.

[loKIEFlow chakraTEASE]

Originally Posted by Vizio

So Daniel was under the influence of a drug when he predicted that Alexander the Great would rise up and conquer the known world, then die suddenly?

David was under a drug when he dreamed up a Messiah being crucified 900 years before crucifixion was invented?

Considering it's naturally produced in your body, it's a hormone, not a drug. If you are still insistent that your body is producing a DRUG, by your definition, then yes it produces many (serotonin, melatonin, adrenalin, dopamine, testosterone, estrogen, etc) and thankfully so

[The Adept]

Originally Posted by Phil P

...
What I am proposing is that the visions all these people saw were induced by DMT. Whether they were divinely guided or not is another question.

It all boils down to a lack of food quality control over the mushroom soup.
Wild Mushroom Soup Recipe Using Fresh or Dried

[The Adept]

What do people make of this?


'I found myself drifting into another world and saw that I was at the bottom of a set of stairs. At the very top of these stairs was a gleaming light like a star or jewel of exceptional brilliance. I ascended these stairs and upon reaching the top, I saw a gleaming, blinding light with a brilliance no man has ever known. It had no shape nor form, but I knew that I was looking at God himself. The magnificence, splendor, and grandeur of this experience cannot be put into words. Neither can my innermost feelings, but it shall remain in my heart, soul, and mind forever. I never felt so clean inside in all my life. All the trash and garbage seemed to be washed out of my mind. In my heart, my mind, my soul, and my body, it seemed as if I were born all over again. '
-Unger, 1965
written by chronic, hospitalized alcoholic who had received LSD treatment

[NightBazaar]

Originally Posted by loKIEFlow chakraTEASE

Considering it's naturally produced in your body, it's a hormone, not a drug. If you are still insistent that your body is producing a DRUG, by your definition, then yes it produces many (serotonin, melatonin, adrenalin, dopamine, testosterone, estrogen, etc) and thankfully so

While DMT is naturally produced in the body, it's purpose is largely unknown. I looked to see (without success) if there was any information about any cases involving the possibility of a bodily imbalance producing large enough amounts to produce hallucinations. In any case, it appears that the amount of DMT found naturally in the brain is extremely small and not likely enough to trigger hallucinations.

On the other hand, there are plants around the world known to produce DMT, strong enough to produce hallucinations. It's also historically known that plant substances had been long been used by seers, oracles, etc., to produce 'visions' and are still used for cultural/traditional purposes by some groups of people today.

Just because DMT is found to naturally occur in the human brain, does not necessarily mean that an excessive amount is a good thing.