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Old 11-08-2007, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Northern Wayne Co, PA
620 posts, read 2,048,935 times
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I say I am not an atheist but I am a nonbeliever. It is undeniable that I am alive on an amazing cosmic playground. This life is filled with transformation and diversity. And all the parts create the whole and that is god. Running through everything. But I can not imagine a puppet master. It is just too man made for me to trust it. I trust the forest and what she tells me and it has nothing to do with someone judging every little move I make. She just says enjoy...be aware...open up to it all.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:07 PM
 
Location: among the chaos
2,136 posts, read 4,777,810 times
Reputation: 993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post

If ground zero 'proves' anything, it's that in the midst of tragedy, hope is not a causality. I hate you missed that in your visit, Troop.

GCS, I had promised myself that I was going to stay clear of all threads except two, but this morning when I popped on to check in, your thread was screaming out at me to be read.

I have to admit to you that there are certain atheists on the forum that I hold close to my heart and you are one of them. I don't know why, but it is there and I can't deny it. I am not 'personally' looking to convert you. I don't think there is anything that I could say to do that. And let's face it, I'm just some cyber-person out there whom you don't even know. For all any of you know, everything that I post is a lie and I'm sitting in my rubber room with nothing better to do. But your post has weighed heavy on my heart today and I haven't been able to get it/you off my mind.

Please don't go off on me, but there are some things that I just have to get off my chest (so that I can get back to my mundane life and my white walls). My heart aches when I read words like yours..."I am now certain God doesn't exist". I understand your pain when you go to Ground Zero. I hope that we all do. I was there myself a couple of years ago. My heart was heavy with confusion and I wept. I wept for the lives that were lost. I wept for the families that were left without their loved ones. I wept for our nation, for our world. But I know that I did not cry alone. I am sure that God sees that tragedy and cries too. My God does not look down on Ground Zero without pain. He is not pleased with what this world has become and he did not cause this tragedy. Yes, I guess that one could say that he 'allowed' it to happen. There is not doubt in my mind that my God could have plucked those planes from the sky had he wanted to. Why didn't he? I don't know. But I believe that my God is good. I believe that the innocent lives that were lost on that day have gone on to a better place and they await the day that they will be rejoined with those that they left behind.

Alpha made reference to hope. IMHO, it is that very hope, the hope of something better, that we as Christians thrive on. It is that hope that gets the mother of a 2 year old boy, who has spent most of his life battling cancer, through the day. It is knowing that there is something beyond this world, something more beautiful than we can imagine, that gives this life purpose. If it wasn't for the hope in the eternal, what would keep us hanging on to a life filled with tragedy? I am sorry for your disbelief. It is my sincere hope that one day we will all spend eternity in Heaven with the God that I know to be true.

As always,
May God bless us all...

Weather...
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:09 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,495,644 times
Reputation: 2052
From what I can determine, according to responses in this thread, God has nothing to do with trajedy and disaster. Those are our fault. From other threads, good fortune is delivered directly from God.

In other words:

bad != God, bad = us
good = God

This seems all too convenient to me.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:11 PM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,380,484 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I can understand perhaps the difference in good and evil in a childish concept of mischief vs. good. But, is it so necessary to take away almost 3000 people in one fell swoop? Is it entirely necessary to allow things like that to occur? Was it necessary for each one of those families to experience the tragedies that they did? All for what? What was God's purpose for that?

Was it to get people closer to him? Was it to allow people to see him better? To ask him questions? To allow people to commit atrocities like that in HIS name? No, I say. No!

There is no such thing as God. Something like that was not necessary. Sometimes you don't realize the true tragedy until you can experience it in some small way. If there is a God, than I want no part of him for he is as wicked as the men who flew those airplanes into the building for allowing it to happen.
It's natural for humans to view things from a finite, earthly perspective which often limits our impressions of who and what God is and how He acts. However, God views things from an eternal, heavenly perspective.

While I can't say for sure exactly why God allowed the events of 9/11 to occur, I rest on the premise that my God always has the best plan for the betterment of His kingdom, whether on earth or--ultimately--in heaven. He will do whatever it takes to further His goals, His kingdom, and the well-being of His children. This is demonstrated throughout the Bible. From God's perspective, the Israelites went into exile for two reasons: 1) as punishment for their sins for which they refused to repent after numerous warnings, and 2) to return the heart of His people to Himself. While Israel's and Judah's enemies committed atrocities in their conquest of Israel and Judah, God was watching. Even though these enemies were the instruments God used to accomplish His plan, He didn't turn a blind eye to their actions. These enemy nations were judged by God because of their brutality.

What was God's purpose for 9/11? I can't say for sure, but I imagine it closely parallels the purposes He had for the exile of His people. As to whether or not this was God's judgment on America, I'll leave that conclusion to others because there is much disagreement. However, as to how it benefited God's Kingdom, I've read a couple of things. The most obvious thing is that people (especially in the US) did return to God. While it can be argued that some subsequently fell away, it's true that others have stayed the course since 9/11. The result that hasn't gotten much publicity is probably going to be disputed. I have read that immediately after 9/11, Muslims in Iran watched the horrors displayed on their TVs and saw the dancing in the street of their Muslim brothers. Many of them said, "If this is what my God stands for, I want nothing to do with this God." It's reported that many Iranians turned their backs on Islam; some embraced Christianity, while others are still trying to find their way. It's also reported that many Muslim people are having dreams of Jesus where He makes His appeal directly to the individual.

I'll be the first to state that I don't always understand or agree with God's ways. (My dd probably doesn't always understand or agree with my ways, either.) However, I fully trust God to do whatever is best for me, His people, and His kingdom. My understanding can come later.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:18 PM
 
2,957 posts, read 7,366,174 times
Reputation: 1958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
While Israel's and Judah's enemies committed atrocities in their conquest of Israel and Judah, God was watching. Even though these enemies were the instruments God used to accomplish His plan, He didn't turn a blind eye to their actions. These enemy nations were judged by God because of their brutality.

What was God's purpose for 9/11? I can't say for sure, but I imagine it closely parallels the purposes He had for the exile of His people. As to whether or not this was God's judgment on America, I'll leave that conclusion to others because there is much disagreement. However, as to how it benefited God's Kingdom, I've read a couple of things. The most obvious thing is that people (especially in the US) did return to God. While it can be argued that some subsequently fell away, it's true that others have stayed the course since 9/11. The result that hasn't gotten much publicity is probably going to be disputed. I have read that immediately after 9/11, Muslims in Iran watched the horrors displayed on their TVs and saw the dancing in the street of their Muslim brothers. Many of them said, "If this is what my God stands for, I want nothing to do with this God." It's reported that many Iranians turned their backs on Islam; some embraced Christianity, while others are still trying to find their way. It's also reported that many Muslim people are having dreams of Jesus where He makes His appeal directly to the individual.
And here we go...God wanted 9/11 to happen because he wants to wipe out Islam.
Sheesh.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:05 PM
 
3,695 posts, read 11,341,091 times
Reputation: 2651
God didn't have 'purpose' for 9/11. He didn't trigger the event. His concerns are with our immortal souls, not with the petty squabbles that only affect the very short part of our existence here on Earth. He's acutely aware of the suffering that this event caused, just as he is with the suffering of families who are losing their loved ones every day over the political and doctrinal struggles that seem to define us as humans.

I remember people asking where God was that morning. He was in the rescuers that raced into the buildings to help. He was in the New Yorkers who opened their homes and businesses to the victims. He was in those who were simply there to listen and support those who had faced tremendous loss. He was there in those irrational, selfless acts that defy the cold logic of self-preservation.

Looking in the faces of the victims to find God is a mistake. Look in the faces of those who held out a hand to help even at great risk to their own lives. That's where you'll find God.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:11 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,495,644 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean98125 View Post
God didn't have 'purpose' for 9/11. He didn't trigger the event. His concerns are with our immortal souls, not with the petty squabbles that only affect the very short part of our existence here on Earth. He's acutely aware of the suffering that this event caused, just as he is with the suffering of families who are losing their loved ones every day over the political and doctrinal struggles that seem to define us as humans.

I remember people asking where God was that morning. He was in the rescuers that raced into the buildings to help. He was in the New Yorkers who opened their homes and businesses to the victims. He was in those who were simply there to listen and support those who had faced tremendous loss. He was there in those irrational, selfless acts that defy the cold logic of self-preservation.

Looking in the faces of the victims to find God is a mistake. Look in the faces of those who held out a hand to help even at great risk to their own lives. That's where you'll find God.
Ah, yes.

Post #23 seems to be accurate.
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:13 PM
 
13,640 posts, read 24,431,856 times
Reputation: 18580
Blame God, blame christians, blame the muslims, blame Bin Ladin, blame airport security, blame anything and everybody....Just make sure you don't blame the real culprit of this world..The sneaky one, the sly one, the one whose force of cunninest is behind every evil in this world..Satan is not the scary red man with horns and feet of a goat..He is beautiful, with beautiful promises of wealth and power, and happiness beyond your wildest imaginations, he tells you that God is a cruel and punishing God who allows things like the world trade center to happen..He tells you that God is the one who allows cancers, starvation and abuse to kill the children, he makes millions believe his lies, because he is the god that is so easy to follow, because he plays on our humaness, our pride, our fear, even our love...

Last edited by Miss Blue; 11-08-2007 at 02:22 PM.. Reason: Add content
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:18 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,289 posts, read 87,129,640 times
Reputation: 55550
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I finally made it up to NYC this past weekend. My wife and I went to the World Trade Centers. My first thought upon seeing Ground Zero was subtle amazement.

My first thought walking into the memorial building brought it into perspective for me. On one wall are photocopies of the actual missing posters of many of the people.

On another wall, behind a glass case, are pictures of the people that died. Well, about half of them. It was then that I realized, looking into all those bright shining faces who had so much taken away from them that God must certainly not exist.

I can understand perhaps the difference in good and evil in a childish concept of mischief vs. good. But, is it so necessary to take away almost 3000 people in one fell swoop? Is it entirely necessary to allow things like that to occur? Was it necessary for each one of those families to experience the tragedies that they did? All for what? What was God's purpose for that?

Was it to get people closer to him? Was it to allow people to see him better? To ask him questions? To allow people to commit atrocities like that in HIS name? No, I say. No!

There is no such thing as God. Something like that was not necessary. Sometimes you don't realize the true tragedy until you can experience it in some small way. If there is a God, than I want no part of him for he is as wicked as the men who flew those airplanes into the building for allowing it to happen.
we had ample security warnings b4 911, powers that be ignored them. they same guys are still running the country, but its not too late, vote next election. please dont blame it on god, he gets blamed for everything. he did not vote for george bush.
thats my thing and thats how i do it
thats my story and im stickin to it
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:21 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,495,644 times
Reputation: 2052
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Blame God, blame christians, blame the muslims, blame Bin Ladin, blame airport security, blame anything and everybody....Just make sure you don't blame the real culprit of this world..The sneaky one, the sly one, the one whose force of cunninest is behind every evil in this world..Satan is not the scary red man with horns and feet of a goat..He is beautiful, with beautiful promises of wealth and power, and happiness beyond your wildest imaginations, he tells you that God is a cruel and punishing God who allows things like the world trade center to happen..He tells you that God is the one who allows cancers, starvation and abuse to kill the children, he makes millions believe his lies, because he is the god that is so easy to follow, because he plays on our humaness, our pride, our fear, even our love...
I'm surpised it took so long for a reply such as this.

From what I can see, to a follower of a certain religion, Satan is the guy named God(s) in all the other religions. Except, in the case of 9/11, Satan would be the God of Abraham. Hmmm...
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