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Old 08-18-2013, 09:38 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Another of the "zero evidence" cohort . . . with the narrow and absurdly limited definition of evidence. Is the Source of our life and existence God? Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God? Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God? Why do you limit the evidence you will accept for God to those that would establish the unprovable man-made BELIEFS ABOUT God? This is so tedious having to deal with the persistent and wrong claims of "zero evidence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
As soon as you provide some falsifiable, verifiable, concrete evidence, we'll reconsider. Until then, there is ZERO evidence for a god.
Then answer my questions. Why are those attributes NOT evidence of God? If you do not allow for partial evidence of phenomena . . . you will not be able to support the existence of many things we know exist. We do not need COMPLETE evidence . . . just sufficient. So answer my questions to support your "zero evidence" nonsense.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:02 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,586 posts, read 10,778,001 times
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Human beings can be miserable arrogant creatures who sometimes refuse to believe in many things out of sheer spite.
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Old 08-18-2013, 11:27 PM
 
1,938 posts, read 2,860,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythunderstood View Post
So, if there is no proof that something does NOT exist, is that a reason to believe that something DOES exist (if there is no proof that it does)?

The op asked if one finds zero evidence for the existence of god, is it ok to believe in god? I think you guys are getting stuck on the word: "ok". Of course it is "ok" to have whatever beliefs one wants, wrong or otherwise, (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone). I think the more appropriate word to use would be "justifiable."

The question I would like an answer to is:

If one find zero evidence for the existence of god, is it justifiable (or even reasonable) to believe in god? I'm not going to get into arguments about whether one needs to justify their beliefs. I'm just asking, can they? If a person has found no evidence whatsoever (zero!) that a god exists, can they justify a belief in one? Based on what?
I think you and the OP are stuck on the word evidence, since as I stated, there is objective and subjective evidence. I am assuming the OP is referring strictly to the objective. Use "evidence" to prove that God does NOT exist. You can't, for someone's definition of God can be outside of our current understanding of natural laws. Additionally, there are and alwys will be limits to our understanding about the universe and whatever is outside of the universe (if there is anything, also a mind-blowing thought). This doesn't mean that we can argue that God does exist, but rather that we can't reject the hypothesis that God exists. It's a losing battle.

Was it justifiable to believe in alternatives to germ theory before germs were actually discovered? Or gravity? Or black holes? Our scientific understanding was limited, so does that make those things mental fabrications? Physics makes some seemingly bizarre conclusions about the nature of reality that convinces me personally that my version of the world, the way the receptors in my eyes and hands view it, is not accurate -- I just see a piece of it, thus even objective evidence is subjective. Knowing this, lots of possibilities exist, including the possibility of anyone's version of God. Do the bacteria in your body understand the sun? Or your emotional world? No, but all of these things exist at the same time. What if our universe is simply a shadow box created by a being or life force outside of what we know to be the universe? Can you prove it one way or another?

Last edited by west seattle gal; 08-18-2013 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 08-19-2013, 05:00 AM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,734,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then answer my questions. Why are those attributes NOT evidence of God? If you do not allow for partial evidence of phenomena . . . you will not be able to support the existence of many things we know exist. We do not need COMPLETE evidence . . . just sufficient. So answer my questions to support your "zero evidence" nonsense.
No, we need more than simply "sufficient" evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Suppose you claimed to have bought a new BMW for $20,000, simply a witness would suffice for evidence that you had done so. Then, suppose you claimed you bought a new BMW for $20,000 that could lift off the ground and fly. That would require video evidence AND confirmation of the video as legitimate. Your claims are in the latter category.

Perceived and/or hopeful attributes do not provide proof of a god.
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:09 AM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Another of the "zero evidence" cohort . . . with the narrow and absurdly limited definition of evidence. Is the Source of our life and existence God? Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God? Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God? Why do you limit the evidence you will accept for God to those that would establish the unprovable man-made BELIEFS ABOUT God? This is so tedious having to deal with the persistent and wrong claims of "zero evidence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
As soon as you provide some falsifiable, verifiable, concrete evidence, we'll reconsider. Until then, there is ZERO evidence for a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then answer my questions. Why are those attributes NOT evidence of God? If you do not allow for partial evidence of phenomena . . . you will not be able to support the existence of many things we know exist. We do not need COMPLETE evidence . . . just sufficient. So answer my questions to support your "zero evidence" nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
No, we need more than simply "sufficient" evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Suppose you claimed to have bought a new BMW for $20,000, simply a witness would suffice for evidence that you had done so. Then, suppose you claimed you bought a new BMW for $20,000 that could lift off the ground and fly. That would require video evidence AND confirmation of the video as legitimate. Your claims are in the latter category.
We do NOT need more than sufficient evidence to refute your claims of ZERO evidence! You keep asserting your unsupported dismissals without answering my questions. You have no authority to simply dismiss evidence as not evidence of God without justifying the assertions. You have not. So either justify your assertions or retract your unsupported claim of ZERO evidence.
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:44 PM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,940,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is so tedious having to deal with the persistent and wrong claims of "zero evidence."
Then just go ahead and present your convincing evidence. This problem is totally in your power to fix. Assuming this evidence actually exists, of course.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:03 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,761,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Another of the "zero evidence" cohort . . . with the narrow and absurdly limited definition of evidence. Is the Source of our life and existence God? Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God? Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God? Why do you limit the evidence you will accept for God to those that would establish the unprovable man-made BELIEFS ABOUT God? This is so tedious having to deal with the persistent and wrong claims of "zero evidence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then answer my questions. Why are those attributes NOT evidence of God? If you do not allow for partial evidence of phenomena . . . you will not be able to support the existence of many things we know exist. We do not need COMPLETE evidence . . . just sufficient. So answer my questions to support your "zero evidence" nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We do NOT need more than sufficient evidence to refute your claims of ZERO evidence! You keep asserting your unsupported dismissals without answering my questions. You have no authority to simply dismiss evidence as not evidence of God without justifying the assertions. You have not. So either justify your assertions or retract your unsupported claim of ZERO evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Then just go ahead and present your convincing evidence. This problem is totally in your power to fix. Assuming this evidence actually exists, of course.
No. I have presented evidence of sufficient ubiquity, power and scope to qualify as EVIDENCE for God. Refute it by answering my questions . . . or retract the absurd claim of ZERO evidence. The problem is with the assertion of ZERO evidence . . . so the problem is totally in your power to fix.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:10 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,734,207 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Is the Source of our life and existence God? Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God? Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God?
There is no evidence to support that they are.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,197 posts, read 9,091,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Is the Source of our life and existence God?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God?
No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Why do you limit the evidence you will accept for God to those that would establish the unprovable man-made BELIEFS ABOUT God?
Your particular man-made (Mystic-made) beliefs about god are what is under debate ... and your particular definition of god. I am aware that your definition and beliefs are different from garden-variety Christianity but that does not really make them any easier to substantiate except to the extent they are arguably more generic and less specific and therefore there is just less to prove.

I would have the same things to say if you were making assertions about the social structure of the inhabitants of Tau Ceti. Or anything else that's in the realm of neither provable nor disprovable.
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Old 08-19-2013, 01:28 PM
 
40,099 posts, read 26,761,498 times
Reputation: 6050
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::Sigh:: Another of the "zero evidence" cohort . . . with the narrow and absurdly limited definition of evidence. Is the Source of our life and existence God? Is the Source of our entire reality and its "laws" and ubiquitous "processes" that constrain, support and evolve life and our universe God? Is the Source of our fantastic consciousness and intelligence God? Why do you limit the evidence you will accept for God to those that would establish the unprovable man-made BELIEFS ABOUT God? This is so tedious having to deal with the persistent and wrong claims of "zero evidence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
There is no evidence to support that they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Then answer my questions. Why are those attributes NOT evidence of God? I have presented evidence of sufficient ubiquity, power and scope to qualify as EVIDENCE for the existence of God. Refute it by answering my questions . . . or retract the absurd claim of ZERO evidence. The problem is with the assertion of ZERO evidence . . . so the problem is totally in your power to fix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
There is no evidence to support that they are.
Their ubiquity, scope and power speak for themselves. If they are not evidence . . . nothing could possibly be. Essentially you have set the bar for evidence beyond any conceivable level attainable by us puny creatures. Evidence merely has to support the existence of God to be more than ZERO evidence. You are denying the possibility of evidence by requiring it PROVE God completely before it will be accepted as evidence supporting the existence of God . . . in essence a reverse tautology or circular argument denying the consequent by denying the premise. It refuses to look at the evidence we have and ask if it is of sufficient ubiquity, scope and power to be evidence of God . . . NOT prove God completely.
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