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Old 07-28-2013, 12:39 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,729,041 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I think I have shown that what I believe is evidence, you do not accept as being evidence. It seems we both agree that blind faith is belief without evidence. But, we do disagree highly as to what constitutes evidence.

All Muslims are or should be aware that all Ahadith carry levels of authenticity and reliability. The major differences in the ahadith are between Sunni and Shia. Sunni accept the Ahadith collected by the first 4 imams as being Authenticate the Shia accept the Ahadith from the first 12 imams as being Authenticate.

The Sufi often are qurani and reject all ahadith. But some Sufi and some Sunni consider Sufiism a legitimate Madhab(Practice/ritual) of Sunni.

Some Sunni and some Shia are also qurani (Ahadith rejectors) Roughly 85 -90 % of all Muslims are Sunni and the majority seem to be aware that each hadith is to be evaluated in terms of Authenticity and reliability.
I agree that you have shown your evidence. But, generally, what you've demonstrated would not be considered as valid or acceptable evidence in any legal forum. I'll concede that your conclusions aren't based on blind faith, but on very shaky evidence, at best. I doubt that you would use such shaky evidence in making other decisions in your life. I would suspect that you wouldn't buy a house based upon the word of individuals who proclaim to know that the house to be worth the investment. Or, the evidence that you don't know of any bad claims about the house. Or that you have old documents stating that the house is sound. Yet these seem to be valid evidence for the way in which you guide your life. I don't get it.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:47 PM
 
391 posts, read 198,563 times
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Arequipa:"Anyone who is of such a view is not going to be interested in anything I say, then. I am merely substantiating my claim that the Bible is not a factually reliable document"

The bible is evidenced through spiritual practice. So address that.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:11 PM
 
39,026 posts, read 10,819,276 times
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No. I merely maintain that the Bible does not stand up as a credible factual record and if we can't believe the factual claims how can we believe to more mystical ones? To those who find evidence of its validity through some sort of spiritual practices, I have nothing to say. Except that it does not prove a thing to me.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
I agree that you have shown your evidence. But, generally, what you've demonstrated would not be considered as valid or acceptable evidence in any legal forum. I'll concede that your conclusions aren't based on blind faith, but on very shaky evidence, at best. I doubt that you would use such shaky evidence in making other decisions in your life. I would suspect that you wouldn't buy a house based upon the word of individuals who proclaim to know that the house to be worth the investment. Or, the evidence that you don't know of any bad claims about the house. Or that you have old documents stating that the house is sound. Yet these seem to be valid evidence for the way in which you guide your life. I don't get it.
I view evidence to be simply a starting point to begin one on the search for proof. The more evidence I gather from different sources the more it will entice me to investigate further. this is true in all matters in all aspects of my life.

With the exception of why I accepted Islam. The investigation came after I accepted Islam. I was perectly happy with being an Atheist and had no desire to study any religion for any purpose.

Up until a matter of minutes before I said the shahadah I was convinced Islam was a false belief and the Qur'an was pure fiction. The events that caused me to accept Islam had a deep effect on me and I am still convinced were the result of divine intervention.

I had left all religion 20 years prior. Was basically an atheist with occasional moments of agnosticism. I had no desire or intent to become part of any religion and do not recall even having engaged in any religious conversations for the previous 20 years. It had been at least 30 years since I last saw anyone I knew was Muslim and would be about 15 minutes after I said the Shahadah I would see a Muslim again. I did not even know there were any Muslims in Texas. After I said the shahadah I thought I was the only Muslim in Texas.

The event that caused me to accept Islam I see as evidence God(swt) exists.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:21 PM
 
7,378 posts, read 6,729,041 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I view evidence to be simply a starting point to begin one on the search for proof. The more evidence I gather from different sources the more it will entice me to investigate further. this is true in all matters in all aspects of my life.

With the exception of why I accepted Islam. The investigation came after I accepted Islam. I was perectly happy with being an Atheist and had no desire to study any religion for any purpose.

Up until a matter of minutes before I said the shahadah I was convinced Islam was a false belief and the Qur'an was pure fiction. The events that caused me to accept Islam had a deep effect on me and I am still convinced were the result of divine intervention.

I had left all religion 20 years prior. Was basically an atheist with occasional moments of agnosticism. I had no desire or intent to become part of any religion and do not recall even having engaged in any religious conversations for the previous 20 years. It had been at least 30 years since I last saw anyone I knew was Muslim and would be about 15 minutes after I said the Shahadah I would see a Muslim again. I did not even know there were any Muslims in Texas. After I said the shahadah I thought I was the only Muslim in Texas.

The event that caused me to accept Islam I see as evidence God(swt) exists.
What was this event, if you don't mind me asking? The shahadah proclaims that Muhammad is the messenger of God. What changed in those minutes that proved to you that Muhammad existed and that God exists?
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,274,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
What was this event, if you don't mind me asking? The shahadah proclaims that Muhammad is the messenger of God. What changed in those minutes that proved to you that Muhammad existed and that God exists?
It is a very lengthy story. I had been asked to repeat it so many times I eventually put it up on a friends website.

Rather than derail this thread. Here is a link to it.

A long Journey to Reach Home - Protected Pearls
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:31 PM
Status: "Smacking fundies." (set 4 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
25,767 posts, read 13,399,507 times
Reputation: 11666
" Do you think it is okay to believe in God even if you can find no evidence for the existence of God?"

Yes, I think it's okay. If it helps you through the night.

It would be a bonus, if such a belief also led you to be kind and considerate of your fellow man and you demonstrated such with a good deed semi-regularly.

And if it should turn out that the god you envisioned doesn't exist -- so what? A clear conscience is a wonderful gift and living a decent life is its own reward.
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:01 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,087 posts, read 12,007,068 times
Reputation: 9714
Quote:

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach



Ultimate evidence of anything can never
be achieved. Believing or not believing in God is a choice..atheists do not
have ultimate evidence nor to believers- I would say it is better to believe
than not- what harm does it do to have faith?
It most certainly is not a choice. The sum total of all my experiences and knowledge does not support belief.....choosing to believe is an impossibility.
If I tell you it's better to believe in leprechauns or Spiderman, could you make a conscious choice to believe? I'm thinking, not so much.
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:05 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,647 posts, read 74,585,953 times
Reputation: 48140
yes i do. i am sorry you have not been provided evidence. i got lots of evidence. declaring there is a god is my only rational explation of why i am not dead.
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:52 AM
 
39,026 posts, read 10,819,276 times
Reputation: 5081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
It is a very lengthy story. I had been asked to repeat it so many times I eventually put it up on a friends website.

Rather than derail this thread. Here is a link to it.

A long Journey to Reach Home - Protected Pearls
I had read that before and it was interesting to read it again. I cannot rule out that such a conversion can happen even to me, but the fact is that I think it unlikely. There is not the need. There is no feeling of emptiness (after the losing of one faith) that needs to be filled by another. I could have easily remained Buddhist but it just didn't deliver enough.
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