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Old 08-06-2019, 11:30 AM
 
Location: USA
3,652 posts, read 1,307,153 times
Reputation: 1052

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'll say this once and once only because it's only going to be wasted on you people. Real, historical people believed that they saw the resurrected Jesus after he was killed. Even non-apologetic Historians recognize this. Those same historians will be quick to say that they don't know what those people actually saw, but that they honestly believed that they saw him. I'm not going to go into the reasons why none of the naturalistic explanations don't have the explanatory scope or power to account for why people believed they actually saw the risen Jesus. I've done it before on other threads and it was wasted effort. Since your presuppositions won't allow you to believe that Jesus could have risen from the dead, the historical evidence won't convince you. Some of you will even deny that there is any evidence. People who aren't hampered by anti-supernaturalistic biases can be open to the evidence. That leaves you people on this forum out.

If Jesus rose from the dead, then everything he said can be considered true, and God exists. I accept the evidence. And I can understand how the universe could have come into existence by purely naturalistic means apart from God just as easily as I can see how God could be behind it. So no. I'm not the one who is closed minded. You people on the other hand are incapable of objectively examining both sides.

That's as far as I'm going with this. I'm in no mood to waste my time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
I'll say this once and once only because it's only going to be wasted on you people. Real, historical people believed that they saw the resurrected Jesus after he was killed. Even non-apologetic Historians recognize this. Those same historians will be quick to say that they don't know what those people actually saw, but that they honestly believed that they saw him. I'm not going to go into the reasons why none of the naturalistic explanations don't have the explanatory scope or power to account for why people believed they actually saw the risen Jesus. I've done it before on other threads and it was wasted effort. Since your presuppositions won't allow you to believe that Jesus could have risen from the dead, the historical evidence won't convince you. Some of you will even deny that there is any evidence. People who aren't hampered by anti-supernaturalistic biases can be open to the evidence. That leaves you people on this
forum out.
According to Acts, about six weeks after Jesus was executed the apostles and some other early followers of Jesus began spreading the rumor that he had risen from the dead. Acts also indicates that Jesus lifted bodily up from the ground and flew up into the clouds. Who claimed to have seen the risen Jesus? His followers and ONLY his followers! Who claimed to have seen the risen Jesus fly away? His followers and ONLY his followers! Are these "real, historical people? None of this was recorded by ANYONE at the time it was supposed to have occurred. The story of the claim that Jesus returned to life and subsequently flew away is contained in the four Gospels and Acts of the Apostles, all of which were written decades after the time they indicate that Jesus was executed. The four Gospels and Acts of the Apostles were written ANONYMOUSLY. As a result, they have NO CLAIM to eyewitness authority.

Does the story of a corpse that returns to life and subsequently flies away represent a believable historical Event? NO! The story of a corpse that returns to life and subsequently flies away has all the earmarks of a tall tale. Rather the way that the story of Noah's ark has all the earmarks of a tall tale. Examples of tall tales from ancient times are prolific. Is the story of a corpse that returns to life and subsequently flies away well attested to by actual historically identifiable sources? NO! The source of the story is provided by anonymous authors, decades after the event was supposed to have occured. The identity of the authors of the four Gospels and Acts is entirely a matter of Christian tradition. Much as the claim that the Bible was inspired by God, the claim is based on nothing more than a matter of because Christians say so! The Gospels and Acts represent the nature of the rumor of the risen Jesus that was being spread in the last third of the 1st century.

Is the rumor believable? Well, is the story of a flying reanimated corpse believable? Is the story of Muhammad's flying beast believable? Is the story of flying reindeer believable? The answer of course turns on the nature of one's inclination to be gullible.

So does the story of the reanimated corpse that flies away represent "an historically factual event" by virtue of it being found in a holy book revered by billions of Christians? Well, does the story of Muhammad's "night journey," during which Muhammad rode a flying beast up to heaven where he visited with the other prophets, including Jesus, the angels and, ultimately, with God Himself, represent "an historically factual event" by virtue of it being found in a holy book (the Koran) which is revered as inerrant fact by billions of Muslims? Or are we looking at a double standard here?

Because frankly BOTH stories contain elements which are unbelievable (they contradict common experience) and seem more the stuff of tall tales and flights of fancy than ACTUAL HISTORY. Actual history, the sort of history promoted by secular historians, contain NO EXAMPLES of supernatural claims (claims that contradict common experience) which are considered to be valid history, it must be noted.

So if your claim that the story of the resurrected Jesus is a genuine historical event, attested to by "real historical people," you will need to begin to build your case by first providing the eyewitness testimony of these "real historical people" you claim exist.

Please proceed to make your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If Jesus rose from the dead, then everything he said can be considered true, and God exists. I accept the evidence. And I can understand how the universe could have come into existence by purely naturalistic means apart from God just as easily as I can see how God could be behind it. So no. I'm not the one who is closed minded. You people on the other hand are incapable of objectively examining both sides.
So if everything you claim to be true, is true, then your claims are true. If only real life worked that way.

Again, please proceed to make your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That's as far as I'm going with this. I'm in no mood to waste my time.
Smells of the admission of defeat to me.

So what of the lurkers, those individuals currently caught between the indoctrination of their upbringing and their innate skepticism, who are currently straddling the fence between belief and non belief, who have their doubts, and who may be silently watching this exchange? They are not worth your time either, apparently.

You are being given every opportunity to establish that your claims have some modicum of validity. And yet you continuously flee from the opportunity. Little wonder that belief in Christianity is rapidly evaporating away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1jF2gt3CPQ

Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 08-06-2019 at 12:06 PM..
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:57 PM
 
Location: USA
3,652 posts, read 1,307,153 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Make believe? You just blew the conversation. Closed minded people with their minds already made up can't be reasoned with.
When I refer to religious "make believe" this is an example of the sort of thing I am refering to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ocean777


Hi
Since I was a child the Angels of God & God Himself have taken me to watch people in Hell being judged for their sins & thrown into the lake of Fire, 'where I watch them burning in agony as their flesh drips off.

At first I did not understand what I was being shown because I was just a tiny kid. But later I knew what God was showing me & sometimes I would talk back to God with arrogance, & act like it was all wrong for Hell to exist at all. Whenever I spoke back to God like that He would just pick me up & throw me into The Lake of Fire as well.

Throughout my life I have been thrown into the lake of fire many times & burned for ages before God brought me out. God is always trying to teach me the way things are & every now & then I think I know more than God! It is ego I guess.

God also takes me to a library filled with living books of life. There are countless books & each one is a life in a different time & place. God then places me into one book after another while He laughs & laughs.

I am placed into a book of life & suddenly find myself in another land & time living as a totally different person. Yet I instantly know who the new person I am actually is, & I know all about the time & place I find myself in. It's like I suddenly realise I have lived there my entire life & know everything about the place & times.
I actually become the person in The Book of Life that God has placed me into.

Then God brings me out of the book & back into the library & He is laughing & laughing at me. Then He places me into another book & again I find myself living as a person in a completely different time & place.

Over & over God makes me experience living the lives of many different people in all different times & lands.
And in between each life God brings me out of the books of life & back into the library where He is laughing happily at me.
That is another thing God does to me when I get the idea that I know more than He. God just shows me His power to show me who is Boss.

I recall that people from other religions have had near death experiences & they found themselves in the Christian type Hell. Then when they came back to life they started preaching Christianity instead of their own religion.


I'm sure that most all of you will be taken to Hell to be judged when you die.

God says to me as we are watching people in Hell being judged: "THE ONLY THING PEOPLE OWN ARE THE GOOD DEEDS THEY DO".

It's like our good deeds get balanced against our bad deeds.

So we really should be doing good deeds every day of our lives until we die. Then we are definitely going to avoid being thrown into the lake of fire. Personally I have already been thrown into the lake of fire & I know how horrific it is.

On a lighter note I have also been taken to Heaven to see The Saints & they are supremely beautiful people! There is nothing on earth that can compare to their beauty. They are absolutely the best people of all & we all should strive to be saints as well.

Still I fear that most all of you including myself will burn in the lake of fire & not go to Heaven when we die. I have lived a selfish life without any doubt.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:59 PM
 
4,651 posts, read 953,183 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacer22 View Post
https://www.arkdiscovery.com/napart5.htm

https://www.arkdiscovery.com/napart8.htm

Before just thinking its a B.S. scam search through all the evidence
and how the bible backs up the dimensions size and the huge anchor
stones that trail to the ark landing location. If you don't believe in the bible and think
we are monkey men then of course its impossible to believe. But if you know the bible
is true then this discovery is just more evidence of the word of GOD is not some ferry tale.
There is flood myths from every culture. People just hate GOD so much that no amount of
evidence is able to open blind eyes and deaf ears of unbelievers or fake christian.
You're new here.

Perhaps if you spent some time listening, and learning, you wouldn't embarrass yourself by comments such as "monkey men", learn that it's spelled "fairy tale", not "ferry tale", and that people who do not believe in a god or gods, don't hate a god.

After all, I suspect you don't believe in fairies or leprechauns right? Do you hate them because of your unbelief?

Grasshopper, listen, learn, absorb. Be one with the truth and reality. You too can do it.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:01 PM
 
4,651 posts, read 953,183 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303guy View Post
cows tend to be female mostly :d
bull! :d
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:31 PM
 
40,490 posts, read 27,025,630 times
Reputation: 6094
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
You're new here.

Perhaps if you spent some time listening, and learning, you wouldn't embarrass yourself by comments such as "monkey men", learn that it's spelled "fairy tale", not "ferry tale", and that people who do not believe in a god or gods, don't hate a god.

After all, I suspect you don't believe in fairies or leprechauns right? Do you hate them because of your unbelief?

Grasshopper, listen, learn, absorb. Be one with the truth and reality. You too can do it.
I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe that is possible with fundies.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:18 AM
 
Location: NSW
2,797 posts, read 1,899,238 times
Reputation: 967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheguevara View Post
There are approximately 1.2 million species of insects that have been identified and named?

My question for debate is:

How did this Noah manage to collect two of each species of insect from all parts of the globe (without transportation), put them aboard the ark, meet their habitat and food requirements, then return them to their proper habitats after a year.

Many of these insects are microscopic. How did people with no knowledge of microscopes or microscopic organisms manage to collect, load, feed and care for the millions of species of these insects?

How did they distinguish between males and females of animals too small to be seen without a microscope?
I think you answered your own question.
Noah's Ark is just a story, a fable, a parable, whatever you want to call it.
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Old 08-21-2019, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,822 posts, read 2,929,117 times
Reputation: 2917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
[b]
If Jesus rose from the dead, then everything he said can be considered true, and God exists.
But if Jesus did not rise from the dead then everything he is alleged to have said can be considered to be untrue, right? And that God does not exist, right?

So perhaps in your defence you would care to provide evidence (note I did not say proof) that Jesus did actually rise from the dead as claimed. May I suggest you start by providing some reasonably compelling evidence to suggest that this man Jesus actually existed to begin with? Not saying he didn't, mind you.
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Old 08-21-2019, 05:37 AM
 
39,988 posts, read 11,196,811 times
Reputation: 5167
i certainly consider that the resurrection is the single thing upon which Christianity depends. If the Resurrection account is true, then Christianity is credible. The only religion that is as it supersedes Judaism and invalidates Islam.

If the resurrection accounts are false, then Christianity collapses. Totally and utterly. Aside from the denial.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:18 AM
 
4,651 posts, read 953,183 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
i certainly consider that the resurrection is the single thing upon which Christianity depends. If the Resurrection account is true, then Christianity is credible. The only religion that is as it supersedes Judaism and invalidates Islam.

If the resurrection accounts are false, then Christianity collapses. Totally and utterly. Aside from the denial.
I wonder why there is not a large sect of Lazurians? Seemingly rising up from the dead is not a unique event in the mythologies of the Middle East.
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Old 08-21-2019, 03:53 PM
 
39,988 posts, read 11,196,811 times
Reputation: 5167
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad View Post
I wonder why there is not a large sect of Lazurians? Seemingly rising up from the dead is not a unique event in the mythologies of the Middle East.
I was going to day: "Lazarus didn't hands down a load pf preachings" (in fact I did) but the more I think about it, the more i wonder just what would stop a religion growing up around Lazarus? I suppose that, if you are follower of some other dude, that rules you out. Which is probably why the first thing that all the gospels agree on is that John the Baptist threw himself on the ground wailing "I'm not worthy! This is the dude, not me!"
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