Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Personally I find it hard to believe in either God or lucifer would be real, actively imposing, present and concious entities. So that puts me among the agnostic I suppose.
The idea Islam, Judaism and christianity has in comon is the belief that God is the good guy. In christianity he also gets jesus as the extension in form of a earthwalking son.
But looking through the Bible(have not read torah or koran), the re-occuring theme is that God always demands blind belief, and absolute belief no matter what. Furthermore he is also repeatedly prepared to punish people, not for opposing him but for even standing neutral towards him. (this is by the way why agnostics and atheist may hold a certain resentment towards for example christians as the christian belief is in a God that would have these agnostics/atheists punished, at least in the past, for example the flood-annihilation of mankind except for noah and his presumably extremely fertile family.)
Another re-occuring theme is lucifer, often refered to as "satan" asks different people in the bible to question their blind faith, to stop for a moment and ask themselves "why?", or to test what commitment God has back to them.
A lot of people per definition see "satanists" as bad, immoral people. I would wonder, just as Lucifer in the bible;
Why?
Personally I find it hard to believe in either God or lucifer would be real, actively imposing, present and concious entities. So that puts me among the agnostic I suppose.
The idea Islam, Judaism and christianity has in comon is the belief that God is the good guy. In christianity he also gets jesus as the extension in form of a earthwalking son.
But looking through the Bible(have not read torah or koran), the re-occuring theme is that God always demands blind belief, and absolute belief no matter what. Furthermore he is also repeatedly prepared to punish people, not for opposing him but for even standing neutral towards him. (this is by the way why agnostics and atheist may hold a certain resentment towards for example christians as the christian belief is in a God that would have these agnostics/atheists punished, at least in the past, for example the flood-annihilation of mankind except for noah and his presumably extremely fertile family.)
Another re-occuring theme is lucifer, often refered to as "satan" asks different people in the bible to question their blind faith, to stop for a moment and ask themselves "why?", or to test what commitment God has back to them.
A lot of people per definition see "satanists" as bad, immoral people. I would wonder, just as Lucifer in the bible;
Why?
You know the word "Satan" in Hebrew literally mean questioner/adversary. It has a similar meaning in Arabic.
A lot of people per definition see "satanists" as bad, immoral people. I would wonder, just as Lucifer in the bible;
Why?
That's because you don't know the back story of who he truly is. Alot of atheist are ignorant of the history of Lucifer and/or have automatically chosen to make God the bad guy because of their own lack of faith. There's really no point trying to explain anything when some people have already chosen who is good and bad in their own mind.
Quote:
Another re-occuring theme is lucifer, often refered to as "satan" asks different people in the bible to question their blind faith, to stop for a moment and ask themselves "why?", or to test what commitment God has back to them.
That's exactly what he did to Eve in the garden of Eden. And she fell for it and ate the apple (that God told her not to) and sin was introduced into the world. Which is why there is every horrible thing you can imagine in this world now. And you wonder why Christians are staunch blind believers and defenders of the faith? Because we've been through this before. We know better.
That's because you don't know the back story of who he truly is. Alot of atheist are ignorant of the history of Lucifer and/or have automatically chosen to make God the bad guy because of their own lack of faith. There's really no point trying to explain anything when some people have already chosen who is good and bad in their own mind.
For the record, atheists (by definition), believe in neither god(s) nor the devil. Out of curiosity (so we can refresh ourselves with this knowledge) ...which books, chapters and verses in the Bible give us this "backstory" on Lucifer you speak of?
Personally I find it hard to believe in either God or lucifer would be real, actively imposing, present and concious entities. So that puts me among the agnostic I suppose.
The idea Islam, Judaism and christianity has in comon is the belief that God is the good guy. In christianity he also gets jesus as the extension in form of a earthwalking son.
But looking through the Bible(have not read torah or koran), the re-occuring theme is that God always demands blind belief, and absolute belief no matter what. Furthermore he is also repeatedly prepared to punish people, not for opposing him but for even standing neutral towards him. (this is by the way why agnostics and atheist may hold a certain resentment towards for example christians as the christian belief is in a God that would have these agnostics/atheists punished, at least in the past, for example the flood-annihilation of mankind except for noah and his presumably extremely fertile family.)
Another re-occuring theme is lucifer, often refered to as "satan" asks different people in the bible to question their blind faith, to stop for a moment and ask themselves "why?", or to test what commitment God has back to them.
A lot of people per definition see "satanists" as bad, immoral people. I would wonder, just as Lucifer in the bible;
Why?
Satan as I see communicated in the Christian Bible is a reference to the disobedient nature of man. Jesus claims that Satan tends to the things of man (not vice versa). Therefore, Satan is not a 3rd party entity in the sense of being a person by himself. Satan doesn't exist unless man exists. Without mans disobedience there can not be a reference to Satan.
When Eve talked to the Serpent, I believe she was really talking to Adam. However, the scriptures were showing a disctinction by referencing the Serpent instead of saying Adam's disobedient nature. Eve as recorded even talks to the Serpent using "We" in the scriptures as to a more knowledged relationship with the Serpent. Furthermore, after the Serpent finishes, Eve gives to her husband "WITH HER". Why would the scriptures put "WITH HER" in the text? - Because I believe Adam is the Serpent (but more specifically Adam's disobedience is Satan). I believe Adam blamed Eve when God inquired because God made Eve FOR Adam and figured if God made Eve for him then what Eve would approve of then God may approve of.
In the case of adam and eve, satan whether a dissobedient aspect of adam/eve themselves or an aentity of his own, makes adam and eve basically question "why" and explore the alternative option.
While this means disobeying what God asked from them, it is still Gods choice to throw them out of the Eden, not lucifers.
In an analogy, if poweraddict parent tells her children they may never go to school to learn anything, and the next day children cross a teacher on the street, the teacher tells them "oh hey come by school I'll teach you how to read",
and the children go;
Is it the teachers wrongdoing that the parent choses to orphan the children by kicked them out?
Briefly. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star(1), son of the Dawn(2)," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. It also means to howl. This same 1 nd 2 are attributed to the mythicaol Jesus in the NT which is why some sects believe Jesus and Lucifer were related or brothers.
Hebrew/Jewish tradition have no beliefs in a literal devil or satan. The word satan is transliterated from the Hebrew words (pronounced as sawtan or sawtawn) and it is not very hard to see how the devil was invented in christianity. The omni-absent god the Greco/Romans invented needed a fall guy and hence, the devil was born to shoulder the blame for all the bad stuff that happens in life that he invented god is/was powerless to influence and/or change.
Satan was used 52 times in the Bible. The word satan comes from the Hebrew word satan meaning "adversary" or "opposer."
Strong's Concordance, Hebrew, satan: 7853 satan saw-tan' a primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse:--(be an) adversary, resist.
Strong's Concordance, Hebrew, satan: 7854 satan saw-tawn' from 7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch-enemy of good:--adversary, Satan, withstand.
So how does an adjective or adverb become a proper noun?
The only way this happens is when you are inventing something based on texts you do not actually understand. Thank you Jerome.
Contrary to popular belief, the first English bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate and NOT from the so called original Hebrew and Greek texts. As a result, the KJV1611 edition had over 20,000 errors IIRC (you can research this yourself)
Subsequent translations have not fared much better using the then flawed KJV as a based English document which btw was used as a base to translate to many other languages. After the RCC no longer controlled the new translations, folk were pretty much free to interpret and write in their own agendas which they did.
What many believers accepts as gawd's word as far as homosexuality goes, initially referred to temple prostitutes and masturbating. This was changed in the last century.
Cunning linguists have refuted translations ad nausium yet despite this contrary evidence, folk prefer to yield to indoctrination and find a mental gymnastic way to still hold onto the bible's so called veracity. We hear the infallibility is in the original texts which no one possesses or has ever seen.
Theists should look up secular studies on the dead sea scrolls which IIRC are the oldest known to man and how much they differ from the current bibles in circulation. All apologetic claims topple over rather dramatically.
But of course we all now know it is a relationship and not about the bible except when it is
How anyone can base their beliefs on a book that has so many known errors still baffles me no end.
"How anyone can base their beliefs on a book that has so many known errors still baffles me no end."
The thing that I find troubling is that all good seminaries, I am told, teaches their students about how the bible was constructed, how sketchy the original books upon which it is founded are, the inconsistencies and errors therein.
This leads me to believe that most heads of congregations that have had thorough and intensive preparation for their vocations are aware of all of this but choose to allow the flock to believe in fallacies, myths.
My husband believes in the inherent goodness of Christ's teachings. He was a deacon in his church. His problem arose when he started reading interesting and factual books by scholars and brought some of these questions up in bible study. People just don't want to be confused with facts. He dropped out.
Church seems like the willfully blind leading others astray.
If a person has a religion it should be able to withstand such inspection, otherwise it is based on weakness and ignorance.
Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people have some direct experience that leads them to believe that there is a spiritual dimension to our lives, that 'we' do not expire when our bodies do; but that is based on experience and not some other person's conjecture that was written in a book. Atheists, themselves, are sometimes closed to that sort of experience, as well, which to my way of thinking can make them just as closed off as the religious.
In the case of adam and eve, satan whether a dissobedient aspect of adam/eve themselves or an aentity of his own, makes adam and eve basically question "why" and explore the alternative option.
While this means disobeying what God asked from them, it is still Gods choice to throw them out of the Eden, not lucifers.
In an analogy, if poweraddict parent tells her children they may never go to school to learn anything, and the next day children cross a teacher on the street, the teacher tells them "oh hey come by school I'll teach you how to read",
and the children go;
Is it the teachers wrongdoing that the parent choses to orphan the children by kicked them out?
God actually knew and wanted them to take of the forbidden fruit. He is creating His own kind (the God kind) and the God kind knows Good and Evil:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
TY Goldengrain. Apologies for all my typos, my eyes all fuzzy today, taking a cholesterol pill that affects my vision.
What you say is true in part but many folk become pastors in an on-job training scenario with say correspondence courses. I am certain, I have more knowledge than my ex Pastor who has a Doctorate in theology achieved in an on job scenario. So it is as you say, the blind leading the blind.
If I had no scruples, I could easily start a new church and fleece the flock. There seems to be an inherent need for religion which in it innocence is not bad and the shiester fulfils an apparent need. These evangelical pastors could use their "god given" skills as second hand car salesmen.
The spirituality which you speak of, most cases are veiled excuses for the need to believe in something greater or the need for purpose in life. On the face of it, life does appear meaningless. Sadly it is and that is why man needed and needs to invent gods and ideas of immortality.
Neo: I thought you said the matrix was not real.
Morpheus: Your mind makes it real.
Some folk need this other dimension to simply make it through the day and embrace cognitive dissonance. At a time I also had this need and sadly it was before the internet was so prolific as it is today. So I fell for the first thing that I thought satisfied this need. I wasted years of my life chasing this illusion and to the detriment of my family at the time, I really became obsessed with it. The bubble did not last so I went in search of the truth and discovered only lies and deceit as far as I looked.
In my journey out I made a short pause with Universalism till I discovered that they too were making a lot of stuff up and not backed by history, merely their interpretation of certain stuff. Basically fundies w/o a permanent hell concept. I have discussed theology with everyone from Priests to Rabbis and many different apologists, they were all found wanting.
A lot of what people perceive they need iro spirituality are really no more than extensions of their own ego.
These days I tell folk their god(s) is/are real but only in their heads.
The mind is powerful and can make anything appear real to us hence the experiential evidence we hear so often. In fact, a pastor even suggested using your testimony as a conversion tool as opposed to the bible. No one can really question your experiences as for you, the individual, it is real, your mind made it so.
However, a lot of these self induced delusions are learned traits. There is a reason why praise and worship sections of a service are so long, music and rhythm are very powerful "tools". Letting go in a happy clappie service is all part of a well orchestrated plan even though many are not aware of what they are doing or what is actually happening who do the performing. This aspect of my experience was the hardest to dismiss as it was, at the time very, very real.
But then reality kicks in and you ask why.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
