Moral argument for the existence of God (education, created, best)

[agnostic soldier]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Nonsense. In a different time, different place, Abraham was just learning who God was.

This says that god is a very cruel entity. Teaching someone a lesson by commanding them to kill their child is rather sadistic. It's like the Nazis. Another problem with this is that, if Abraham was just learning who god was, he was learning to follow god's command without question, no matter how vile that command is.

You can't even tell me if killing children is wrong. All you can do is say that in your opinion it's not good.

This is ironic since you aren't following your deity if you say it is wrong. It says you aren't judging morality based on god's moral standard.

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy

And what evidence do you have for hell? Again, is it just because you read about in some iron-age text? You have no evidence to back up a single thing you believe, yet you interrogate others. Unreal.

I don't believe in the god of the fundamentalists who sends people to some place called hell.

And I get my evidence of a Creator not from an iron age text but from clouds and wild mustangs. From the beauty of the Redwoods and the sound water makes when it crashes as a wave on the beach.



I just kinda, sorta wanted to know why that poster thought he could tell someone they'd failed a thread. He's always telling people they're going to hell. (Which I think is a lot of rubbish.) That was a literary comparison on my part.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Vizio

You have shown repeatedly on this thread that you are not interested in actually answering the question, but have instead simply tried to derail it with your silly questions.

So it is silly to ask the pastor what he thinks of the Bible and its pronouncements?

It is silly to ask why someone you view as God tell them to torture a child? You even deny that it is torture.

What kind of moral guideposts do you live by?

Bottom line is that it doesn't matter if you think Abraham was immoral or not. If you think society determines morality, then your opinion is just that--an opinion. You can't even tell me that the Nazis were wrong for killing 8 million Jews--after all, it was a different time.

This thread has been one big fail for you....I get that.

What the flip are you talking about? I know that it's wrong what the Nazis did. Where do you ever come up with the idea that anybody on this forum didn't feel that way?

[RogersParkGuy]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

I get my evidence of a Creator not from an iron age text but from clouds and wild mustangs. From the beauty of the Redwoods and the sound water makes when it crashes as a wave on the beach.

I see. So clouds, wild mustangs, redwoods and crashing waves are supernatural. They could not possibly occur in nature without divine intervention? You say you don't believe in the God of the fundamentalists, but your reasoning is no better than theirs. The things you cite, although beautiful, are not evidence of a Creator.

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by RogersParkGuy

I see. So clouds, wild mustangs, redwoods and crashing waves are supernatural. They could not possibly occur in nature without divine intervention? You say you don't believe in the God of the fundamentalists, but your reasoning is no better than theirs. The things you cite, although beautiful, are not evidence of a Creator.

Lol. I can assure you there is absolutely NO reasoning involved.

Pure gut and instincts.

[RogersParkGuy]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

Lol. I can assure you there is absolutely NO reasoning involved.

Pure gut and instincts.

You base your belief on a supreme being on gut and instincts, and smile about it. Wow...

[agnostic soldier]

What's interesting is that the OP has said atheists can't say what the Nazis did was wrong because it was a different time and different culture, yet they have no problem justifying things like Abraham and Isaac by saying it was a different time and different place. If it were true that none of the morals in the Old Testament apply to Christians, then that says the morals of the biblical god change over time. It's hypocritical to say atheists can only base their morals on opinions when the OP bases their morality on a moral standard that is either unchanging and completely barbaric or changes based on time and culture. The moral argument is a failure and the bible itself is proof that god cannot account for morality.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

Lol. I can assure you there is absolutely NO reasoning involved.

Pure gut and instincts.

I give you points for honesty. If practical theism was about gut feeling and instinct with no reasoning involved and theists in the main admitted it, most of the debate and discussion in this forum would disappear, because most of it is about theists claiming they have a reasoned position based on evidence.

I don't think less of you for deciding to bypass reason. It's a strategy -- so long as the resulting subjective feelings meet your needs, who am I to argue against it? And if you can respect that this strategy doesn't float my boat, we have a basis to focus on our common humanity rather than our differences of opinion.

[Grandstander]

In a state of anarchy it would be impossible to have a shared religion come into being, clearly some form of civilization is a prerequisite.

In order for a civilization to come into being, there has to be agreements among the participants regarding how people should and will behave toward one another.

Such agreements are morality. We will cooperate rather than compete. We will collectively punish individual transgressors.

So obviously the concept of morality must predate both civilization and religion.

Just not so obvious to Vizio.

[Horn of ‘83]

So obviously the concept of morality must predate both civilization and religion.

Yes. It's called God.