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Old 09-14-2013, 11:04 AM
 
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1) God spontaneously came into existence and He created the universe
2) The universe spontaneously came into existence

Why is 1) considered a better explanation than 2)? They're equally likely since they both involve something or someone spontaneously coming into existence
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:14 PM
Status: "An English arse is stalking me." (set 5 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,367 posts, read 8,908,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowerOfThings View Post
1) God spontaneously came into existence and He created the universe
2) The universe spontaneously came into existence

Why is 1) considered a better explanation than 2)? They're equally likely since they both involve something or someone spontaneously coming into existence
Who claims #1 is true?
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,553 posts, read 3,284,371 times
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I don't think most theists say god just appeared. Most say he's always existed. I sort of assume that's how the universe is though. The evidence we have suggests the universe is constantly expanding. Some say that eventually it will spread to thin and collapse on itself. When this happens, the universe will suck into a singular point, and the big bang will happen again. That's just one hypothesis, there are many more and that's what I love about science. Religion says 'this happened and that's that' while science says 'I don't know, but here are some ideas' and I find the ideas to be pretty fun.

How the universe got here is of course tricky. Has it always existed? How? Doesn't everything have a beginning? When did it start and what was going on before it started? These are all abstract questions. Theists would say it can only be explained by god, but when you do that, you can literally put 'god' in place of 'the universe' in those questions above and there's still no answer.

I assume most say 'god did it' because it gives them a sense of purpose. Science sort of just says it's an accident. Personally, I'm fine with being an accident. Theists say things like 'God loves you and made you for a purpose' and they say it to make me feel important (and convert and give money to their church too, I'm sure), but it doesn't work. I don't like the idea of being given a purpose. I want to find my purpose on my own, not find it because it was fated to happen. I see no shame in being an accident. Sometimes accidents yield some pretty life changing things.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:09 PM
Status: "An English arse is stalking me." (set 5 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
16,367 posts, read 8,908,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
I don't think most theists say god just appeared. Most say he's always existed. I sort of assume that's how the universe is though. The evidence we have suggests the universe is constantly expanding. Some say that eventually it will spread to thin and collapse on itself. When this happens, the universe will suck into a singular point, and the big bang will happen again. That's just one hypothesis, there are many more and that's what I love about science. Religion says 'this happened and that's that' while science says 'I don't know, but here are some ideas' and I find the ideas to be pretty fun.

How the universe got here is of course tricky. Has it always existed? How? Doesn't everything have a beginning? When did it start and what was going on before it started? These are all abstract questions. Theists would say it can only be explained by god, but when you do that, you can literally put 'god' in place of 'the universe' in those questions above and there's still no answer.

I assume most say 'god did it' because it gives them a sense of purpose. Science sort of just says it's an accident. Personally, I'm fine with being an accident. Theists say things like 'God loves you and made you for a purpose' and they say it to make me feel important (and convert and give money to their church too, I'm sure), but it doesn't work. I don't like the idea of being given a purpose. I want to find my purpose on my own, not find it because it was fated to happen. I see no shame in being an accident. Sometimes accidents yield some pretty life changing things.
I believe a creator is the logical view. The chances of a "cosmic accident", while possible, are so remote.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
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Makes no difference to me.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:20 PM
 
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God is before time.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,402 posts, read 9,152,294 times
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#2 As a small example: Mathematics, physical laws and DNA coding by simple chance? Not only is it illogical, but pret near impossible if one can believe science.

What are the odds of mere chance? Well do the math: How many events since the Big Band to today Each event: either it works or falls. Seems like 2-1 odds at each event. With that sort of odds you are looking at a billion to one by event #30 for all things to work out. That's just up to event #30.

God: either He exists or not-2:1 odds. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on God.

I am saying this as if I had no evidence for God, just for the sake of discussion.
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Dallas
242 posts, read 197,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
God: either He exists or not-2:1 odds. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on God.
Wow ...kinda like lottery tickets. Buying a lottery ticket is 2:1 odds since you either win or don't. Trouble comes in when you consider the number of gods being sold though.

Seems to me that if any of the Abrahamic variations on god were real, they'd be friendlier to the guy who just refused to play at all than the guy who picked the wrong one.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
8,402 posts, read 9,152,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greaemonkey View Post
Wow ...kinda like lottery tickets. Buying a lottery ticket is 2:1 odds since you either win or don't. Trouble comes in when you consider the number of gods being sold though.

Seems to me that if any of the Abrahamic variations on god were real, they'd be friendlier to the guy who just refused to play at all than the guy who picked the wrong one.
guess you would rather engage in ridicule than discussion.
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Old 09-14-2013, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,663 posts, read 74,316,376 times
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Because there are so many people who feel no natural sense of "doing the right thing", that they need an authoritative personal representative of the creator of the universe to interpret morality for them and tell them how to behave, and constant threats of eternal suffering to enforce it..
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