12 Points of an atheist's logic that defeats the Christian Theology! (grace, agnostics)

[Shirina]

No one needs to "defeat" anyone. In the USA we have been granted the freedom to worship as we please or not at all.

That's not entirely true. I certainly feel there is a need to "defeat" the zealous right-wing Christians who believe that we DON'T have the freedoms you say we have.

Too many folk in the US, evangelists in particular, seem to think that the 1st Amendment only works one way, that it keeps government out of religion but does not keep religion out of government. Any government interference in religion is considered "religious persecution" to those who feel that their religious freedom includes the freedom to force everyone else to adhere to their beliefs.

The plethora of state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage is an excellent case in point considering nearly all of the opposition to gay marriage is religious. Assuming I were gay (which I'm not), I should have the freedom to marry regardless of what religion says about it because I should be protected from religion's inherent predilection for fascism.

Yet in most states, I cannot get married to a same-sex partner because, Christian or not, I am forced by law to obey the edicts of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. What happened to my freedom?

As I say often: One cannot have freedom OF religion without also having freedom FROM religion. Yet you'd be surprised how many Christians try to dispute such a basic truism. Non-Christians are protected from religious tyranny only by the flimsiest of secular laws -- that being the 1st Amendment. Yet a seemingly growing number of Christians subscribe to one of the very things that makes religion so dangerous: its natural penchant for totalitarianism, authoritarianism, and absolutism. Thus the 1st Amendment, and indeed the entire Constitution, is shunted to the back seat while religion takes the wheel. Since Christians believe that God is the highest law of the land, what God says trumps anything Man says and, as a result, we have gay marriage bans founded upon religious belief despite what the Constitution says.

These are the people that need "defeated," those who would trash our cherished freedoms as Americans and place everyone under the yoke of Christian rules. Every civilization that has been ruled by religion has also been tyrannical, oppressive, authoritarian, and just plain brutal.

[Miss Hepburn]

Belief without reason?
Why believe without experience?

Have a direct, up close and personal, intimate experience of God,
or the Divine Presence for your selves one and all...Christians, agnostics, Jews
and Muslems.

That alone would settle a lot ...it would certainly stop asking for proof and
"believers" pushing their 'agenda and it is the only way'...they would see
all is fine and taking it's own perfect time.

The ones making the most noise seem to be the ones on both sides that haven't any
direct experience of the Divine...bec with that comes such peace and insight
into the nature of things.
No more push/pull.

That's how I see it. Find the proof or answers or wisdom inside yourselves...
Not on paper or under an electron microscope or blackboard equation.

[macpherson]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Belief without reason?
Why believe without experience?

Have a direct, up close and personal, intimate experience of God,
or the Divine Presence for your selves one and all...Christians, agnostics, Jews
and Muslems.

That alone would settle a lot ...it would certainly stop asking for proof and
"believers" pushing their 'agenda and it is the only way'...they would see
all is fine and taking it's own perfect time.

The ones making the most noise seem to be the ones on both sides that haven't any
direct experience of the Divine...bec with that comes such peace and insight
into the nature of things.
No more push/pull.

That's how I see it. Find the proof or answers or wisdom inside yourselves...
Not on paper or under an electron microscope or blackboard equation.

more subtle rejecting and criticizing for the honor of everybody is just supposed to love each other deal. (deleted my entry before I saw yours, can't remember for now why.

[Mr5150]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Atheistic logic? Didnt know such a thing existed. Your post is a half page of ad hominems followed by a bunch of assumptions and ramblings.

Originally Posted by mensaguy

Where did Rifleman say he was using "Atheistic logic?" While you're looking that up, go ahead a cite the assumptions and ramblings you claim he posted.

you ask where did Rifleman "Atheistic logic"? I would suggest you re-read the title of this thread.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

That's how I see it. Find the proof or answers or wisdom inside yourselves...
.

Right. And then go crash a jetliner into a skyscraper while yelling "God is great!"

[Stubblejumper]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Belief without reason?
Why believe without experience?

Have a direct, up close and personal, intimate experience of God,
or the Divine Presence for your selves one and all...Christians, agnostics, Jews
and Muslems.

That alone would settle a lot ...it would certainly stop asking for proof and
"believers" pushing their 'agenda and it is the only way'...they would see
all is fine and taking it's own perfect time.

The ones making the most noise seem to be the ones on both sides that haven't any
direct experience of the Divine...bec with that comes such peace and insight
into the nature of things.
No more push/pull.

That's how I see it. Find the proof or answers or wisdom inside yourselves...
Not on paper or under an electron microscope or blackboard equation.

The problem I have with using personal experience solely, is that it's largely unreliable. The judicial system dealt with these issues at the beginning of the forensics era - eyewitnesses gave testimony directly in contradiction with dna evidence, but believed wholeheartedly that they were telling the truth. Further research revealed that they truly were telling the truth - or what they thought was the truth. It turned out that our ability to perceive and our ability to remember - especially details- simply isn't very reliable.

There are certainly times where a situation is simple enough that I trust experience. There are also times where no outside information is available. However, in I stances where I'm wrestling with a truly grand question and further evidence is available it seems incredibly foolhardy not to make use of it.

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by John F S

You are free to believe whatever you like and I am free to believe whatever I like, with or without reason.

To be honest, I don't give a rat's behind what it is that you believe in or don't believe in. My fights are with other Christians and not atheists.

(Pssst John FS: You don't have to be here either. Your option..)

My point as well, but then... why do so many Christians get their holy water and crackers in a bunch when anyone simply asks to openly debate here [on an open debating forum, I'll happily add...] their so-called infallible religion?

Seems that, whenever that process is initiated, they get so very defensive, and do not EVER want to actually participate, knowing the ultimate outcome of course...

And as well, that if you are honest with yourself, you'll have to accept that the points proffered up by either side are not now, nor forevermore, balanced, despite what "V" has claimed in his attempts to escape the intellectual leg-hold trap he stepped into.

At least, not until the likes of he and other denialists here, like Mr5150, agree to enter into a polite but rigorous debate on each one of them.

Like, did God literally Insta-Poof this universe, and all of the known [and as-yet unknown, but nonetheless evolving along..] living entities here, all done, according to so many literalistás now, exactly 5629 years ago!

And () all in one week!)

Or... is there possibly... a far better explanation that is now so well evidenced by fossils, dating, the geological column, the now inarguable science of DNA genome mapping and it's accompanying lineage tracking, and so on? Not to mention that all that information has provided very accurate prediction capability?

Hmm... that's a big problem for religion's constant denials of ALL OF IT, since Christianity has not EVER succeeded in predicting anything, and especially anything that can be observed or repeated! And as well, your God has categorically refused to EVER show His face...

Yet... Christians just yukkingly auto-dismiss all of those logically derived facts and truths, and confidently turn to Revelations or Genesis or whatever, and say.... "See! It's all there, in living proof!" Huh? Proof? You do understand the definition of PROOF, do you not, guys? I don't think so, given your constant mis-use of the word to mean whatever your spur-of-the-moment decide it needs to mean.

In the real world you'd then instantly lose your high school debating team's argument. Fortunately for you, there's no such honestly mandated here, and you can just say whatever you want, but then run off... Stuff like...

"Well anyhow, I like the emotional perspective of my ideas, so I consider that to be proof enough."

As Jack Nicholson said in "A Few Food Men"... "The truth? You can't handle the truth!" books of the past 50 years. All nonsense?

Yup: you got it! Quite convincing of you, to be sure!

Then they call those two alternative perspectives "equal and balanced" in their validity? Or even better, that the science-generated knowledge is all "just a bunch of lies and biases!".

Hmmm. How so? Lies by literally multi-millions of honest and credible scientists, new graduates of science or engineering, as well as the writers of all the logic-based science books of the past 50 years? Hmmm...

Then they go on to claim to be fair, open-minded and equally as educated as the scientific community? Huh? What? Really? when they won't participate in an honest debate due entirely to their palpable fear of just such an encounter?

You decide, dear readers.

Originally Posted by Vizio

Atheistic logic? Didnt know such a thing existed. Your post is a half page of ad hominems followed by a bunch of assumptions and ramblings.

Another illogical ad hominem, with nary a single worthwhile point in support of such a claim. V here obviously can't [won't] read a science/biology text book, or is frightened of it beyond belief.

Well, as requested above by mensaguy, please post my bunch of assumptions. Point-form would be nice.

I will wait, as always, with infinite patience. Knock yourself out, Big V!

[Stubblejumper]

Originally Posted by Mr5150

you ask where did Rifleman "Atheistic logic"? I would suggest you re-read the title of this thread.

Rifleman wrote "an atheist's logic", not "atheistic logic".

The former meaning an atheist's use of inductive deductive or abductive reasoning, the second suggests that there is a branch of logic dedicated solely to atheist thought. Two entirely different meanings.

That begs the question of whether you misread the title yourself or whether you're attempting to divert attention away from the actual issues presented.

[TroutDude]

Originally Posted by Stubblejumper

Rifleman wrote "an atheist's logic", not "atheistic logic".

The former meaning an atheist's use of inductive deductive or abductive reasoning, the second suggests that there is a branch of logic dedicated solely to atheist thought. Two entirely different meanings.

That begs the question of whether you misread the title yourself or whether you're attempting to divert attention away from the actual issues presented.

Good catch. (Too soon to rep again.)

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Right. And then go crash a jetliner into a skyscraper while yelling "God is great!"

Well that was just stupid bec it has nothing to do with what I said.
The people, zealots, that are terrorists have not done exactly what I have said...they
read something on paper and took it into some nutty zone.
Did u even read my post?