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Old 11-21-2007, 12:08 PM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 1,251,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Okay, Famenity, apology accepted



But what could happen, that means something must be hauled back, if we treat each other respectfully, even if we have different opposing beliefs? God bless.
I have in mind the strong distrust being built up politically on religious lines to enable hatred among the fearful.
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:05 PM
 
144 posts, read 359,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi Otoatlanta, Yes, God does describe Himself as love and the greatest love that He has demonstrated is in the giving of His Son for us. The abuser does not do what is best for a battered child or a battered spouse. He does not have the battered child or spouse's best interests at heart. He or she is reacting out of pain and/or out of the need for control and is intentionally hurting or causing pain. The person is sick. God is Creator and He is not sick. He suffer or endure is for our benefit because in the end, we will be made in His image. That's how it is whether we approve or not.
is not reacting out of anger or pain and He is not on a control kick. He is making man into His own image and this involves the experience of evil. The evil that we
Think of it like this, how can we develop compassion, mercy, patience, perserverance, forgiveness, and all those other wonderful qualilites without adversity? How can we learn to forgive someone unless there is something to be forgiven? How can we learn to develop agape love, love for someone who doesn't deserve it unless there is someone "unlovable"? It's good
even though we may not see with physical eyes or understand it it right now. That is what faith is all about.




Remember, God is the Creator and I am the creature. I may not understand all of His ways, but I know that He is good and that He does what is best for me. So even in the experience of evil or pain or suffering, I know that all things work for the good. I may not understand all that He is doing, but I trust Him fully. As far as my relationships with others, I am to love them and do them good. Remember the golden rule? Do unto others as we would have done to us. Jesus teaches us to love one another and even to love our enemies and to be perfect just as our Heavenly Father is perfect. What does this mean? God loves us and He also loves His enemies with agape love. He does what is best for all, even through the experience of evil. God bless.
You said that god is not on a control kick. How exactly do you know that? god did not want Adam and Eve to eat of both the tree of knowledge and life. Why? Because then, they would be like "the gods". That doesn't sounds like manipulative control kicking to you? It does me. It's call strategically keeping someone down.

You said that god doesn't do what he does out of anger, like an abuser, but the Bible clearly states that god does plenty out of anger(even jealousy):

"A fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell." (Deuteronomy 32:22)

"And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath." (Jeremiah 21:5)
"My wrath shall become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." (Exodus 22:24)

You said that the evil that humans suffer now is OK because "in the end" we will be made in his image. Didn't the bible say that god created man in his image already?(Genesis 1:27) So what is it that you are speaking of?

You asked me, how is it that we can develop qualities such as compassion, mercy, patience, etc..These qualities are not relevant in a perfect world. Had god created the world perfectly, then these qualities would be of little value, let alone exist. The only reason that they are valued is because of the human state of affairs. Like all animals, we must survive. Compassion, patience, and mercy are but social qualities that aide in our survival. If god had allowed man to eat from the tree of life, rather than struggling just to survive, the aforementioned would not be qualities man would need or value in the first place. You asked how we could develop "agape love". I ask you, how did god and what proof do we have(based on his actions) that he is indeed the epitome of love? You must have some proof, because otherwise, how could you tell a "true loving god" from an "evil false god"? Since murder, anger, wrath, slavery, rage, torture, rape and all other things that the god of the bible did and promoted relayed his "love" for us, I am asking then, what is evil and how do we recognize it?

The only reason that we don't understand gods ways is because he intentionally keeps humans in the dark(assuming he exist at all). You are stating that through death and destruction, which god commits against humans, that he is doing what is "best". So, when a child is murdered by her/her parents, in your heart of hearts, you believe that it was "best" for the child and furthered serves to teach the child a "lesson".

Last edited by otoatlanta; 11-21-2007 at 02:17 PM..
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:09 PM
 
144 posts, read 359,187 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
The unchosen animals, infants, and children all belong to God too. He has both life and death in His hands. Drowning is a terrible thing, but all things come from God (Romans 11:36) whether we like this or not. The scriptures speak of a time when all of creation will be delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8) and so evidently all will be made right and God who is responsible for all of us will set things right. There are some things that we can't understand right now and I know you have heard that time and time again, Otoatlanta, but it is true. We can't know all things, (Romans 11:33), but we have a glimpse into the final outcome and it is good. God bless.

All will be made right? So then, you are agreeing that god messed up in the first place, and is indeed fallible?

Personally, I believe everything turns out ok as well, I just don't believe that murder and torture as a process happen to fall under the category of what is OK.
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:42 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
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Quote:
You said that god is not on a control kick. How exactly do you know that? god did not want Adam and Eve to eat of both the tree of knowledge and life. Why? Because then, they would be like "the gods". That doesn't sounds like manipulative control kicking to you? It does me. It's call strategically keeping someone down.
Hi there Otoatlanta, there is no way that Adam and Eve could be like God like satan suggested because they were creatures by definition of their creation. They just didn't know it. When they acted in disobedience, they messed up and only God could fix it. And in the process of their “fall” they did come to know good and evil. It isn’t manipulative control kicking. God knows who is God. Again, it is about God making us into His image and He doesn’t need our permission to do this.

Quote:
You said that god doesn't do what he does out of anger, like an abuser, but the Bible clearly states that god does plenty out of anger(even jealousy):

"A fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell." (Deuteronomy 32:22)

"And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath." (Jeremiah 21:5)
"My wrath shall become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." (Exodus 22:24
God’s righteous anger is not the same as displayed by sinful humans. It is never out of control. There is a purpose or reason for it's display. Part of man's learning involves consequences for disobedience. And there are many places in the scriptures where God condescends to relate to mankind on his level. God in omniscience knows beginning to end and even planned for things to unfold as they have, so how can He truly be angry about anything? He shows us His "anger" to teach us. He punishes to teach and correct. The abuser abuses to destroy and is sick. He or she tramples on the rights of the victim. God owns us in every way even if we don't like it or can't accept it for now.

Quote:
You said that the evil that humans suffer now is OK because "in the end" we will be made in his image. Didn't the bible say that god created man in his image already?(Genesis 1:27) So what is it that you are speaking of?
Adam was a rough draft so to speak and yes on one level he was made into God’s image, however, there are scriptures which speak of believers being transformed into His image. It is an ongoing process and the finished product has yet to be completed. There are translations which say, "Let us be making man in our image" in the Genesis reference.
[/quote]

Quote:
You asked me, how is it that we can develop qualities such as compassion, mercy, patience, etc..These qualities are not relevant in a perfect world. Had god created the world perfectly, then these qualities would be of little value, let alone exist. The only reason that they are valued is because of the human state of affairs. Like all animals, we must survive. Compassion, patience, and mercy are but social qualities that aide in our survival. If god had allowed man to eat from the tree of life, rather than struggling just to survive, the aforementioned would not be qualities man would need or value in the first place.
Maybe for God’ purposes they are of value in His perfect world. Perhaps our ideas of a perfect world are not God's. These qualities are essential. God Himself is merciful, patient, forgiving, longsuffering towards us and He plans for us to have the same qualities. There was a lot that Adam didn’t have or know about God in his “perfection” and being made into God's image.

Quote:
You asked how we could develop "agape love". I ask you, how did god and what proof do we have(based on his actions) that he is indeed the epitome of love? You must have some proof, because otherwise, how could you tell a "true loving god" from an "evil false god"? Since murder, anger, wrath, slavery, rage, torture, rape and all other things that the god of the bible did and promoted relayed his "love" for us, I am asking then, what is evil and how do we recognize it?
God gave His Son for us and this displays the heart of God. That is all the proof that we really need, if you can accept this. Again, God’s plan is to reunite or reconcile all Himself and He sent Jesus to demonstrate His agape love for us. Evil is only tool in the hands of God and in the final outcome, when it’s purpose is accomplished, it will no longer be in operation. Evil in the hands of God is not sin in the hands of God because God never misses the mark or fails in anything.

Quote:
The only reason that we don't understand gods ways is because he intentionally keeps humans in the dark(assuming he exist at all). You are stating that through death and destruction, which god commits against humans, that he is doing what is "best". So, when a child is murdered by her/her parents, in your heart of hearts, you believe that it was "best" for the child and furthered serves to teach the child a "lesson".
Again, God is not a human being. Death and destruction are simply tools in His hands and He controls all things. A father or mother (creature) who murders a child is not God, who is the Giver of life. Not the same thing at all. God gives life and He takes away life. Everything is in His "hands". Again, God is love and so we can be sure that all of His actions, including the experience of evil, is for our benefit. Whether we want to accept this or not now, is another question. We may not like it, but that is how it is.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-21-2007 at 04:11 PM..
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Old 11-21-2007, 03:49 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
Reputation: 1323
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
The unchosen animals, infants, and children all belong to God too. He has both life and death in His hands. Drowning is a terrible thing, but all things come from God (Romans 11:36) whether we like this or not. The scriptures speak of a time when all of creation will be delivered and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8) and so evidently all will be made right and God who is responsible for all of us will set things right. There are some things that we can't understand right now and I know you have heard that time and time again, Otoatlanta, but it is true. We can't know all things, (Romans 11:33), but we have a glimpse into the final outcome and it is good. God bless.
Quote:
All will be made right? So then, you are agreeing that god messed up in the first place, and is indeed fallible?
Not all, although many who do not understand the sovereignty of God believe this is the case and so this is how it was presented. When we look around us today, things "seem" to be out of whack. And from our viewpoint, they are, if we don't understand the sovereignty of God. From the viewpoint of many, God has messed up or He is standing on the sidelines "wringing His hands" hoping that someone will listen to Him. And I believe that this too is in the plan of God. But the creation at the present time has been made subject to futility not by its own will but by the will of God. There was no mistake. Everything was intentional and for a glorious purpose. So, when I say, He will set things right, I am saying that He will "fix" all things. That doesn't mean that He made a mistake or messed up, because He intentionally planned for the "mess".

Quote:
Personally, I believe everything turns out ok as well, I just don't believe that murder and torture as a process happen to fall under the category of what is OK.
Thank you for sharing. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-21-2007 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: clarification, addition
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Old 11-21-2007, 07:34 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,816,000 times
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I came across some notes on evil in my studies today:

Quote:
Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil....Evil is necessary for the production or development of good. You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil...All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness. One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, death will likewise be abolished forever (I Cor. 15:26) and God will be all in all "!!!

May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.
Ray Smith
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Old 11-24-2007, 05:18 PM
 
8 posts, read 15,809 times
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The devil isn't evil just the ruler of hell. Over centuries and with logic we assume that the devil is evil but or world and lives were made with free will in mind and with that said what is free will with out the option of good or evil. It makes perfect sense to think that the devil would be evil but is a warden of a prison evil. The choice comes in having the options but also in not knowing the answer, hence the lack of proof of both sides of the mystery of God! Have you ever worked at a job and busted a little more ass as the boss strolled in? Now imagine you've never met your boss and he strolled in like any other customer. Is that God's grand thoughts? Makes sense to me. Faith is like a gun, they both have good and bad qualities but I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. As to the devil, prove to me he is evil and not just a tool by which God meant for us to be tempted. As to the matter of God, it is completely irrelavent except to know if there will be punishment for our evils and hence leave but one option which is in turn contradictory to free will. So, instead of tring to decide between good and evil PICK AND LIVE!
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Old 11-24-2007, 09:51 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,518,646 times
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Originally Posted by tootken
Quote:
As to the devil, prove to me he is evil and not just a tool by which God meant for us to be tempted. As to the matter of God, it is completely irrelavent except to know if there will be punishment for our evils and hence leave but one option which is in turn contradictory to free will. So, instead of tring to decide between good and evil PICK AND LIVE!
Tools do not have a will of their own, so they cannot make suggestions to their creator. While Satan did just that in Job; Satan persuaded God to allow him to curse Job just to win a bet.

Quote:
Job 2
1 When the angel gathered around the Lord again, Satan was there with them, 2 and the Lord asked, “Satan, where have you been?”
Satan replied, “I have been going all over the earth.”
3 Then the Lord asked, “What do you think of my servant Job? No one on earth is like him—he is a truly good person, who respects me and refuses to do evil. And he hasn't changed, even though you persuaded me to destroy him for no reason.”
4 Satan answered, “There's no pain like your own. People will do anything to stay alive. 5 Try striking Job's own body with pain, and he will curse you to your face.”
6 “All right!” the Lord replied. “Make Job suffer as much as you want, but just don't kill him.” 7 Satan left and caused painful sores to break out all over Job's body—from head to toe.
Job 2 - BIBLIJA.net - the Bible on the Internet
Granted in this tale God isn't blameless either, cauz to me this is just another version of a bum-fight. But the moral of the story is that not everyone is tempted by the base need of the ego.
And let's face it, the ego often is egocentrically who only cares about himself and is eagerly primed to do evil in order to get what it wants.

Last edited by Tricky D; 11-24-2007 at 10:05 PM.. Reason: translation error
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:34 PM
 
8 posts, read 15,809 times
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Tricky D you don't get what I was saying. A warden is a tool by which the state or federal goverment controls and manages a prison, and in the same way the devil a tool by which God controls and manages evil, hell, and tempation. If tool isn't a good word to use it doesn't change the point. If God is the CEO of all things then couldn't it be possible that Satan is the Excutive Vice President of evil. Your own justification would strengthen my arguement because the devil ask God's permission. If Satan were evil of his own free will and accord and truely hated good and God then why would he ask permission from God for any temptation he'd dish out? My arguement is that the Devil temps us by God's design therefore is a tool by which to do so. Having his own opinion is the nature of all beings and doesn't prove that he is evil or any less a tool or as some would argue a toolbag!
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Old 11-25-2007, 12:55 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,518,646 times
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Originally Posted by tootken
Quote:
If God is the CEO of all things then couldn't it be possible that Satan is the Excutive Vice President of evil.
The thing is that a creation can only be a reflection of its creator. I mean I can only express something in my art which I have experienced myself, I can not express something with my art which I have never experienced myself.
God therefore is good and evil (since he is omniscient) otherwise Satan could never become evil. So if God is both good and evil, why does He insist that man only is good?

Quote:
Your own justification would strengthen my arguement because the devil ask God's permission.
The only reason Satan 'asked' permission is so he can prove that he and not God is right. He 'needed' God's permission so he could gloat right in God's face before all His creation.
It is like any rivalry between the upstart prince-heir (Satan) and the old wise king (God). Satan just can't wait to takeover the kingdom of God and become the king of creation.

The difference between a human prince-heir and a king and God and Satan is that God will never retire of old age because he is immortal. So Satan with his desires will be doomed forever to be the prince-heir, unless he revolts and kills God. He tried and failed, but he will keep trying for eternity, because he like God is immortal.
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