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Old 11-25-2007, 03:01 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,470,899 times
Reputation: 1573

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Not only are Adam & Eve punished, but all their off-spring is also being punished.
That is just a bit too harsh for my taste.
I mean why should a child be punished for a crime he did NOT commit?

Only when Jesus arrived on the scene did God mellow out.
But wasn’t God supposed to be love from the beginning?

Originally Posted by Oren
Quote:
I just don't agree with those that choose to take them literally
What makes you believe that I take the Bible literraly?
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:10 PM
 
33 posts, read 73,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi Tootken, there are scriptures which speak of satan being evil "from beginning" and if all is out of God as recorded in several scriptures, then I believe that both good and evil are out of Him. I don't believe that God Himself is evil, but that evil is a tool that God uses to teach us and to humble us. When its purpose is fulfilled it will no longer be in operation. There are many beneficial things that develop within us due to our experience with evil. If evil developed outside of God, where did it come from? And if it was not a part of His plan, how did it develop outside of His omniscience and if He did not plan for it to develop why would He allow for it to continue? Thanks for sharing and God bless.
There is no devil.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:12 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,768,712 times
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Hi Oren, I believe that satan or the devil exists.(John 8:44) Thanks for sharing and God bless.
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Old 11-25-2007, 03:33 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,768,712 times
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According to 1 Corinthians 15:24-27, Jesus Christ will put an end to all rule, power, and authority (except that of God's) so this tells me that satan will not have any rule, power, or authority throughout eternity. All of the enemies of Christ will be placed under His feet. All will be subjected to Christ who Himself will be subject to God who put all things in subjection to Jesus Christ. Satan will have no power to influence, hold captive, or revolt God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-25-2007 at 04:10 PM.. Reason: typos, addition
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:34 PM
 
8 posts, read 15,765 times
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Satan has no power no one does except for the submission of others. Oren you should move on if you don't like the debate at hand. The question, Why did god create the devil?, is in my opinion to serve him which he does with evil. Adam and Eve were content on not eating the forbidden fruit until the devil tempted them to, which was a test I believe. They failed and were punished. Tricky D you say a loaded gun and I say fruit. If you put fruit out in front of your children under the instruction not to eat it and they sucome to temptation they should be punished and God didn't punish me or you but our world is the product of that action from the beginning hence our punishment. This is really a non issue. You can't say God is all knowing or immortal if he has a rival which is of his own hand. The very thought is impossible to understand. Wouldn't God know every move Satan will make and in turn is 100% impossible to beat in any fashion? Wouldn't Satan know that God is impossible to beat and as I said before the option to choose comes in not knowing the answer and Satan knows the answer and knows that choosing against God would be choosing against life. Satan is God's soilder and accomplishes his task to confuse and tempt people so that the good we do is of our own free will and not the fear of punishment!
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Old 11-25-2007, 09:52 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,470,899 times
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Quote:
Tricky D you say a loaded gun and I say fruit.
I'd say poisonous fruit or mind-altering drug then, since eating of the fruit also affected Adam & Eve's children.
If my child did something bad, I'll punish and reprimand her, but I will not punish her child, or her child's child, or their child etc.
I don't see why all creation has to suffer for something only man has done?
That would be like also punishing your innocent child, even when it was only my child who did something wrong.
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Old 11-26-2007, 04:55 AM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 1,248,075 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tootken View Post
. Oren you should move on if you don't like the debate at hand.
To be generous to Oren he makes a valid point if you assume he left out the word 'proof'.
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:14 AM
 
33 posts, read 73,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Not only are Adam & Eve punished, but all their off-spring is also being punished.
That is just a bit too harsh for my taste.
I mean why should a child be punished for a crime he did NOT commit?

Only when Jesus arrived on the scene did God mellow out.
But wasn’t God supposed to be love from the beginning?

Originally Posted by Oren What makes you believe that I take the Bible literraly?
Most of the things you reference in the bible were symbolic. Which means that some of the stories written were illustrations of something else. Too often people use their imaginations to draw pictures of how they preceived things took place when they weren't intended for that purpose. The bibles teachings are to be revealed in divine revelation to those that seek to know the truth. The parts you pull from the bible are pulled in segments and only used to suite your needs, this is the main reason why most scripture is misinterpreted.

I admire your observations, but have a different opinion on the way things were/are. Where is the harm in that?
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Old 11-26-2007, 10:49 AM
 
33 posts, read 73,208 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by tootken View Post
Satan has no power no one does except for the submission of others. Oren you should move on if you don't like the debate at hand. The question, Why did god create the devil?, is in my opinion to serve him which he does with evil. Adam and Eve were content on not eating the forbidden fruit until the devil tempted them to, which was a test I believe. They failed and were punished. Tricky D you say a loaded gun and I say fruit. If you put fruit out in front of your children under the instruction not to eat it and they sucome to temptation they should be punished and God didn't punish me or you but our world is the product of that action from the beginning hence our punishment. This is really a non issue. You can't say God is all knowing or immortal if he has a rival which is of his own hand. The very thought is impossible to understand. Wouldn't God know every move Satan will make and in turn is 100% impossible to beat in any fashion? Wouldn't Satan know that God is impossible to beat and as I said before the option to choose comes in not knowing the answer and Satan knows the answer and knows that choosing against God would be choosing against life. Satan is God's soilder and accomplishes his task to confuse and tempt people so that the good we do is of our own free will and not the fear of punishment!
Tootken, I enjoy learning but feel that there is an element that is commonly used in the faith debate that confuses things. So don't get it twisted.

For the question, why did God create the devil? I say that there isn't a devil. Those that take the bible literally say things like, "God is perfect - God is Love" and then say, "God created the devil - God created evil". Love does not create hate. Good does not create evil. Hate is the absence of love and evil is the absence of good.

God did not create the devil because there is no devil. God is perfect. You can not maintain the stance that God is perfect and all knowing and then claim there is a devil. I believe hate and evil are an absence of Love. A hell is a place that is in complete isolation from God...not a place where there are red monkeys with pitchforks and all of that hoopla.

You can choose to go as far away from the sun as you want, but don't complain that you are cold. If you want light and warmth, choose to go back towards the sun. It's that simple.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:01 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,470,899 times
Reputation: 1573
Quote:
I admire your observations, but have a different opinion on the way things were/are. Where is the harm in that?
I never said that you cannot have a different opinion or that you do harm. You only do harm when you prefer your beliefs over common reality.
The fact that you are able to do so only means that you are free to choose, even if you choose your belief over common reality.
I mean if you choose to believe that you can fly I can only try to convince you that this is not so. But in the end it is up to you what you want to believe.
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