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Old 11-26-2007, 08:46 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,803,498 times
Reputation: 1323

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Quote:
Tricky D., you know where I stand on that
Quote:
Yes, I only keep respectfully disagreeing with you. Not to convince you, but just to give my different opinion.
Okay, I can respectfully accept that.


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Well, Tricky D., evil in the hands of man is not good. God and man, two different things.
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The problem is that God wants man to act like him, yet does not want man to do evil.
But how can man act like God in every respect? He can't or he would be God.
God says for example, for us not to repay evil with evil . Vengeance is His. God knows how to do it perfectly because He is God, and He knows how to bring about the desired results. I will read your always well thought out reply tomorrow, Tricky D., must turn in. Thanks and God bless.
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Old 11-26-2007, 08:48 PM
 
33 posts, read 73,387 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
How can we even know what love is if we did not know what hate is?
The same way we know what freedom is without going to prison.
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Old 11-26-2007, 09:10 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,505,772 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Oren
Quote:
The same way we know what freedom is without going to prison.
I agree.
In Eden there was no hate because there was no need for anything.
Once death enter the scene, need is required.
You'll need certain things in order to survive.
The problem is that other people will need the same things you need, so war entered reality
And loss and grief.
It all went downhill from there.

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
But how can man act like God in every respect?
He cannot but the Christian God requires it anyway.
This is one of the main reasons that I do not believe in the Christian God.
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Old 11-27-2007, 02:59 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,803,498 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
The same way we know what freedom is without going to prison.
Oren, I don't know that we can really know what freedom is without the realization that there is such a thing as not having freedom. We may be able to come and go as we please but do we really know that this is freedom without understanding that lack of freedom exists?

Quote:
He cannot but the Christian God requires it anyway.
Hi Tricky D., I don't believe that the Christian God requires us to act like Him in every respect. How could that be seeing that we are His creatures? If that is the case, we would consider ourselves to be God, His equal. There are qualities that He wants us to have and we are being made into His image, but there is only one God and He is the one that holds that position. It is only because of His power that we are even able to do anything at all. We are not able to work all things according to the counsel of our wills as He is able to work all things according to the counsel of His will. We are subject to Him. He does not require us to receive worship as God does. How could we act like God in this respect seeing that we are not God? God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-27-2007 at 03:24 AM..
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Old 11-27-2007, 04:23 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,505,772 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Hi Tricky D., I don't believe that the Christian God requires us to act like Him in every respect. How could that be seeing that we are His creatures?
Hi Shana, let me cheat a bit by answering your question by asking a counter-question:
Does a loving father only want his child to be a copy of him, or does he want his child to become better than him?
The problem with God is that He already is the ultimate being and yet like any loving father God wants (or inspires) us to be better than Him.
God wants man to be better than God by giving man the knowledge of good and evil, but not do evil, or even think evil.
Christians already sin if they think about a sin, and I find this illogical and counterproductive.

I mean many Christians claim that God is only good and yet God has done evil and He allows evil. So whenever evil happens Christians either claim it is not evil because God did it, or they just claim that we, unlike God, do not really know the difference between good and evil.
I know that rape is evil, that someone who rapes is incapable of love, even when the rapist claims to love his victim.

Many Christians believe that not helping evil is good, and that they do good by not helping evil, but I simply believe that they are wrong.
A rapist is clearly evil and not helping a rapist is good, but if you know that a rapist is in the process of raping someone and you do nothing because you do not want to endanger yourself, you are just as evil as the rapist because you condone rape by adopting a neutral stance towards evil (rape). So if you know that someone is suffering, but do not do anything to relieve that suffering you are evil in my eyes.

There are Christians who say that stealing is evil, but I believe that stealing to feed the poor is not evil at all.
Do you believe me to be evil?
There are people who claim that violence is always wrong, but I say that if someone wishes to violate you, you are perfectly allowed to use (lethal) violence if need be.
Do you believe me to be evil?

Good and evil are definitely not as easy to distinguish as black and white.
Some people do good for the wrong reasons, which still makes them evil (like confessing the truth, but only because it helps you on the path to power).
And some people do evil for the right reasons, which makes them good (like stealing to feed the poor).

Originally Posted by Oren
Quote:
If Jesus was of God, why didn't he use evil to promote His good intentions...He very well could have.
Like Oren already mentioned, why does Jesus only do good if he is also God, who is both good And evil?
I personally believe that Jesus is only a man and not God and Jesus chose to only do good.
So did Ghandi and Martin Luther King JR. and many others.

If you believe that evil is necessary in order for good to exist you could argue that Hitler did good, by showing us how evil man can be. When you follow that train of thought long enough you could come to believe that a rapist also did good because he impregnated a woman who brought new life into the world.
If you believe all that, it is fairly easy to reach the conclusion that evil=good, or that there is no evil or good.
Obviously I do not believe this, but many people do.

Last edited by Tricky D; 11-27-2007 at 05:57 AM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:27 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,878 posts, read 17,798,053 times
Reputation: 5139
Why was this question even raised? It would seem that all anyone wishes to do in this thread is attack people who believe in God. It reminds me a lot of junior high school, which is kinda sad, because my guess is most of you are past that stage of your life, no?

If you have nothing to offer the thread other than ridicule or spite, perhaps you should step back and let others who wish to answer the question to do so. I find it so telling that atheists in this world claim to have no problem with what others believe, but if they even hear the word "Bible" in a sentence, they are there, front and center, to denounce it and whomever is speaking regarding the subject--and as if any of you have a lick of sense any more than the rest of us! If you truly have no problem with other religions, then you won't have a problem with my opinion that you should BUTT OUT of conversations in regard to them. Would you show the same disrespect to a Muslim? A Buddhist? A Hindu? I doubt it--highly. Christians are easy targets for atheists, because there are no repercussions. I'd love to see any one of you go to Iran and tell Muslims there is no Mohammed. Now that would be something!
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:44 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,505,772 times
Reputation: 1573
Question Are you talkin' to me?

Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs
Quote:
I find it so telling that atheists in this world claim to have no problem with what others believe, but if they even hear the word "Bible" in a sentence, they are there, front and center, to denounce it and whomever is speaking regarding the subject--and as if any of you have a lick of sense any more than the rest of us! If you truly have no problem with other religions, then you won't have a problem with my opinion that you should BUTT OUT of conversations in regard to them.
Are you talkin' to me?
Cuz if you are, I'm just answering a question of ShanaBrown who I believe is a Christian. When you don't like my answers than I suggest to not read them. Just because you do not value my opinion doesn't mean that it has no value. It only means that YOU find it valueless.
And why don't you BUTT OUT since no one asked you anything?

FYI not being a Christian doesn’t automatically makes one an atheist.

(PS If you did't mean me than just disregard this post)
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 21,498,171 times
Reputation: 19858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
Why was this question even raised? It would seem that all anyone wishes to do in this thread is attack people who believe in God. It reminds me a lot of junior high school, which is kinda sad, because my guess is most of you are past that stage of your life, no?

If you have nothing to offer the thread other than ridicule or spite, perhaps you should step back and let others who wish to answer the question to do so. I find it so telling that atheists in this world claim to have no problem with what others believe, but if they even hear the word "Bible" in a sentence, they are there, front and center, to denounce it and whomever is speaking regarding the subject--and as if any of you have a lick of sense any more than the rest of us! If you truly have no problem with other religions, then you won't have a problem with my opinion that you should BUTT OUT of conversations in regard to them. Would you show the same disrespect to a Muslim? A Buddhist? A Hindu? I doubt it--highly. Christians are easy targets for atheists, because there are no repercussions. I'd love to see any one of you go to Iran and tell Muslims there is no Mohammed. Now that would be something!

I travelled through the Middle East and North Africa extensively and all the people I met were fine with me being an Atheist ( even in Iran! land of Satan to some ). They asked me why , listened politely, told me why they believed that Allah existed and then we usually had food, mint tea and a laugh ( and I was a single woman traveller by the way). I never encountered hostility and certainly no attempt at trying to convert me. I realise there are Muslim fundamentalists who would have me stoned to death but then again extremism is not a Monopoly of Islam. Same in other countries of different faiths.

Though I agree that some Atheists will mock Christians ( and other believers) most only ridicule anyone when they are goaded into it. Being quoted scriptures ad Nauseam and being told you are depraved and going to hell for not believing in God, I would call that pretty extreme.

If you expect Atheists to just take it on the chin when a Christian will cry "foul" for any even mild criticism of their creed then I'm afraid that is not going to happen.

As far as I'm concerned people can believe what they like as long as they don't try to drag me and others into their belief system. When someone starts to quote the bible , or "prays" for my salvation when specifically asked not to, I do find it a bit pushy.

I have never had any bad experiences from any other believers than Christians. In fact until I came onto this forum I was actually pretty respectful of Christianity as most of my friends are Christians ( including a vicar) .

However some of the posts I have seen regarding Gay people, creationism, abortion, pregnancy out of wedlock , and other religions and races has made my blood run cold and I am frankly shocked and quite bemused at how some people reconcile a religion supposedly based on Love, Tolerance and kindness to others with their demonic view of our world. I have been given a deeply unpleasant insight into certain aspects of Christianity which quite frankly horrify and astound me.

This does not really endear those people to me. I have seen much bigotry and ignorance and yes it does invite ridicule sometimes.
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 1,250,447 times
Reputation: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
If you believe all that, it is fairly easy to reach the conclusion that evil=good, or that there is no evil or good.
I think it becomes very difficult to argue a point with a person (not you Tricky) who has saturated themselves in a kind of learning that leads the inquiring mind into a kind of hallucination where a very real feel supplants the normal distance that we find tangible when reading text.

This type of experience has been noted among, for instance, watchmakers of the eighteenth century who because of the study and historical grasp of horology could become so steeped every waking minute of their life in the problems of watchmaking as to believe they were a part of the mechanism of the watch.

I fear we are reaching the position with students of religion where they cannot be dispassionate about what they have learned.

This is not aimed at any particular faith. So how can we evaluate the Devil and his creation, whether that be real or myth?
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Old 11-27-2007, 12:30 PM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,878 posts, read 17,798,053 times
Reputation: 5139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by Mom2FeebsAre you talkin' to me?
Cuz if you are, I'm just answering a question of ShanaBrown who I believe is a Christian. When you don't like my answers than I suggest to not read them. Just because you do not value my opinion doesn't mean that it has no value. It only means that YOU find it valueless.
And why don't you BUTT OUT since no one asked you anything?

FYI not being a Christian doesn’t automatically makes one an atheist.

(PS If you did't mean me than just disregard this post)
No, not talking to you, and I realize it is the opinion of many that not being a Christian doesn't make one an atheist, although, by Biblical standards, it probably does, in a more general sense.

So....there ya go. I guess I will disregard the other stuff now.
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