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Old 11-27-2007, 05:48 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,601,965 times
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Quote:
Hi Shana, let me cheat a bit by answering your question by asking a counter-question:
Does a loving father only want his child to be a copy of him, or does he want his child to become better than him?
The problem with God is that He already is the ultimate being and yet like any loving father God wants (or inspires) us to be better than Him.
God wants man to be better than God by giving man the knowledge of good and evil, but not do evil, or even think evil.
Christians already sin if they think about a sin, and I find this illogical and counterproductive
Hi Tricky D. , I will respond to the first part of your post and then hopefully come back on later after doing some plans for school. Most parents want their children to become better than they are, I believe, but human parents are just that, human beings. Human beings are not perfect. God is not a human being. God is not only loving Father, He is God, the Creator. God is perfect. How can human beings become more perfect than that which is perfect? So, no, I don't see any indication in scripture (which I believe to be inspired by God) that says that God wants His creatures to be "better" than He is. No one can be better than Him. He is It-the Highest of the High. We are being made into His image not greater than His image or greater than Him. God already had the knowledge of good and evil and giving mankind the knowledge of good and evil does not mean that God intended for mankind to be better than God. We cannot be better than He is because He is Supreme. Talk to you later and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-27-2007 at 05:59 PM..
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:55 PM
 
110 posts, read 338,699 times
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Nicolepsy,
In order to seriously ask why God created the Devil, you have to first believe in God and the Devil. There is not an iota of fact-based evidence that either exists. Historically, the Hebrews, as evidenced in the Old Testament, called ANY opponent of Yahweh a satan. satan (with a small 's') simply meant opponent and nothing more. In the New Testament, for the first time the generic satan opponent was turned into an individual being and satan (small 's') became Satan (capital 's'). If you study comparative religion, you will see that when deities require opponents to impress people with their power. A story in which a deity stomps around and says, "I am all powerful" isn't very convincing without a an opponent to defeat. Initially, Yahweh was but one of many gods doing battle with the others. When the religion evolved (I would argue devolved) to the point where he was the only god, an opponent had to be created, hence Satan.
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Pocono Mts.
9,483 posts, read 10,569,701 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolepsy View Post
what is the reason for it? (for those of you that believe this)

My belief is that God did not create the devil. God created angels, Lucifer being one of his most cherished. And God created Man. Lucifer would not accept Adam, and conspired against his existence. Lucifer became the devil, and fell from grace after tempting Eve, and Adam through Eve, into original sin.

The reason Lucifer became the devil is because he
a) would not accept Adam as a being above an angel,
b) enticed other angels to feel the same way, and break God's commandments,
c) broke God's commandments by coveting what Adam had, becoming jealous of Adam, and thus enticed Eve amd Adam to break God's commandment
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:06 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,601,965 times
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Quote:
I mean many Christians claim that God is only good and yet God has done evil and He allows evil. So whenever evil happens Christians either claim it is not evil because God did it, or they just claim that we, unlike God, do not really know the difference between good and evil.
I know that rape is evil, that someone who rapes is incapable of love, even when the rapist claims to love his victim.
Hi Tricky D., I am not sure that I am following, but all I can share is that I believe that God is ultimately good but that all things are out of Him, including evil. I believe that He uses evil for the ultimate benefit of mankind, for example, to teach us, to mold us, to develop us, to humble us, to show us the difference between good and evil. Evil in the hands of mankind is not good but God is able to bring good out of the evil situation. This does not give people the license to do evil . People are not God who sees all, knows all, created all, and is directing all.

Quote:
Many Christians believe that not helping evil is good, and that they do good by not helping evil, but I simply believe that they are wrong.
A rapist is clearly evil and not helping a rapist is good, but if you know that a rapist is in the process of raping someone and you do nothing because you do not want to endanger yourself, you are just as evil as the rapist because you condone rape by adopting a neutral stance towards evil (rape). So if you know that someone is suffering, but do not do anything to relieve that suffering you are evil in my eyes.
I believe that if someone understands that someone is in the process of being raped, they should do whatever they can in their power to help, call the authorities, seek help.

There are Christians who say that stealing is evil, but I believe that stealing to feed the poor is not evil at all.
Do you believe me to be evil?
.

There are people who claim that violence is always wrong, but I say that if someone wishes to violate you, you are perfectly allowed to use (lethal) violence if need be.
Do you believe me to be evil?


Good and evil are definitely not as easy to distinguish as black and white.
Some people do good for the wrong reasons, which still makes them evil (like confessing the truth, but only because it helps you on the path to power).
And some people do evil for the right reasons, which makes them good (like stealing to feed the poor).
I believe that one act does not make a person good or evil but I believe that we are all capable of doing good or evil. I agree that we may differ or our understanding of what may be evil but I believe that all is out of God, whatever our understanding of evil is.




Quote:
Like Oren already mentioned, why does Jesus only do good if he is also God, who is both good And evil?
I personally believe that Jesus is only a man and not God and Jesus chose to only do good.
So did Ghandi and Martin Luther King JR. and many others.
As I shared before, Tricky D., I don’t believe that God is both good and evil but I believe that He is ultimately good and that all things are from Him, including evil. Remember what I asked you before about the author of a play or novel? Jesus is the One through whom all things were made and I believe that this also includes evil. As I shared before, Jesus is the exact representation of the Father according to the Christian scriptures and showed us the true nature of the Father. The law came through Moses but grace and truth were revealed through Jesus Christ. God is ultimately good but He uses evil for benign purposes. For example, when evil is eradicated from the universe, all will glorify the Father having seen and experienced the terrible fruits of its display. We will glorify Him for His goodness and understand what goodness is all about.


Quote:
If you believe that evil is necessary in order for good to exist you could argue that Hitler did good, by showing us how evil man can be. When you follow that train of thought long enough you could come to believe that a rapist also did good because he impregnated a woman who brought new life into the world.

I don’t think that I said that evil is necessary for good to exist but I said that I believe that evil is necessary for us to know what goodness is. As someone has said, what was good health to Adam, someone who never knew what it was like to be ill or sick? And we realize what mercy is when a situation is created which calls for its display. It was always there. Hitler did not do good but God does good in allowing us to see the the horrible consequences of evil in the hands of a man. We understand how horrible it is. And we will see the destruction of evil and sin when Jesus subjects all things to Himself and makes all power (outside of God’s) of no effect. I believe that we will fully then understand the glory of the Holiness, Goodness, and Power of God. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-27-2007 at 08:24 PM..
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Old 11-27-2007, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,453,088 times
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Unbelievable layers of mumbo-jumbo on top of fairy tales. These good people will believe all this tripe but can't see their way through a couple of science courses in high school. CRITICAL THINKING is what gets you ahead, not mumbo-jumbo and pie in the sky by and by.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:01 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,313,851 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Hi Tricky D. , I will respond to the first part of your post and then hopefully come back on later after doing some plans for school. Most parents want their children to become better than they are, I believe, but human parents are just that, human beings. Human beings are not perfect.
Hey Shana, this sure is true, but instilling someone with the knowledge between good and evil (like God who has this knowledge, simply because he is omniscient) and then insisting him to only be good is asking this human that he is only perfectly good.
A child might inherit the hot temperament of his father and the gentleness of his mother, but insisting that the child is only gentle is denying the father.
Humans are good AND evil just like in God's image, but insisting that man only behaves Good is benign and has no evil thought, is demanding that man is better than God since GOD does both good and evil. It is just humanity that insists that God can only be benign.

I mean if a woman falls in love with a man and after their marriage it turns out that her husband is abusive as well, should the woman also love and accept her husband's abusive side?
I would give this woman the advice to get out of this marriage, no matter how much she loves the non-abusive side of her husband, simply because a loving man would never abuse people and certainly not the one he claims to love.
And yet many Christians will believe that her husband being abusive is a test from God, or that it is necessary so she would appreciate her husband's non-abusive side more.
Or that love should be agape and that she should tolerate the abuse.
Or that if she leaves him, she never loved him at all.
There are many reason to love wrong and be evil and only 1 reason how to love right and be good, but abuse certainly ain't a sign of love.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs
Quote:
Like Tricky D, you seem to take what I say just a little personally.
Trust me honey, you'll know when I'm taking you personal.
Quote:
Why was this question even raised? It would seem that all anyone wishes to do in this thread is attack people who believe in God. It reminds me a lot of junior high school, which is kinda sad, because my guess is most of you are past that stage of your life, no?
I just find it funny that you compare atheists with people in junior high school. Then you call them sad by claiming that they should be better than that.
Why? You do exactly the same thing what you believe the atheists are doing. In fact this is how you justify your own behaviour.
Quote:
If you have nothing to offer the thread other than ridicule or spite, perhaps you should step back and let others who wish to answer the question to do so.
It is clear to me that in your eyes any atheist who disagrees with a Christian on the matter of God and the Bible can only be ridiculous or full of spite. And that atheists hog the board in order to prevent Christians from answering a question.
Quote:
I find it so telling that atheists in this world claim to have no problem with what others believe, but if they even hear the word "Bible" in a sentence, they are there, front and center, to denounce it and whomever is speaking regarding the subject--and as if any of you have a lick of sense any more than the rest of us!
Then it is a good thing that no Christian ever claimed that Christians should be tolerant, cauz that would mean they have more sense than the rest of the people in the world.
Quote:
Would you show the same disrespect to a Muslim? A Buddhist? A Hindu? I doubt it--highly.
I have discussed the matter of good and evil or the existence of the devil with many Buddhists, but unlike most Christians they don’t mind me having a completely different opinion.
Quote:
Christians are easy targets for atheists, because there are no repercussions. I'd love to see any one of you go to Iran and tell Muslims there is no Mohammed. Now that would be something!
I have often discussed matters of the faith with the Muslim side of my family who live in Ambon. I guess me being family of Muslims doesn't count? Even when at the time that we were discussing religion on Ambon, several severed heads of Christian students were found? That there is a war going on between the Islamic and Christians on Ambon, even when they are family?
That this war is initiated (and sponsored) by a 3rd party namely the Indonesian government.
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:47 AM
 
Location: South East UK
659 posts, read 1,235,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Unbelievable layers of mumbo-jumbo on top of fairy tales. These good people will believe all this tripe but can't see their way through a couple of science courses in high school. CRITICAL THINKING is what gets you ahead, not mumbo-jumbo and pie in the sky by and by.
The trouble is they have developed a dual personality one part spying on the other, heaping guilt and sin, it must be a very tough life.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:00 AM
 
Location: Pocono Mts.
9,483 posts, read 10,569,701 times
Reputation: 11352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain View Post
Unbelievable layers of mumbo-jumbo on top of fairy tales. These good people will believe all this tripe but can't see their way through a couple of science courses in high school. CRITICAL THINKING is what gets you ahead, not mumbo-jumbo and pie in the sky by and by.

God was gracious enough to give the power of critical thinking to believers and non-believers alike. I can believe in faith and science, and I have faith that truth in science leads to the advancement of all people. What is a fairy tale and mumbo jumbo to you gives some people hope Einstein believed in God, and science - and therefore tripe and science? No, because true critical thinkers explore every option of our existence.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:42 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,561 posts, read 14,313,851 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by poconoproud
Quote:
What is a fairy tale and mumbo jumbo to you gives some people hope Einstein believed in God, and science - and therefore tripe and science?
True, but Einstein's God is not some father figure who sits on a throne high in the sky, judging us people here on earth.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:56 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,036 posts, read 21,192,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
No honey, it's "BUCK UP LITTLE CAMPER". And no, I wasn't moaning about being judged and ridiculed. I was pointing out that it is what I see here in this forum. Like I mentioned before, I can sleep at night. I have no problem with criticism. Most of us can handle it.

I'm confused. What idea of Christianity? Have I even given you what my idea of Christianity is at all? I didn't think I had. Certainly not a complete one. Like Tricky D, you seem to take what I say just a little personally. Interesting since you are saying it is Christians that can't take criticism. So far I haven't attacked your lack of beliefs, just the lack of substance behind it. Atheists don't seem to do things that way. They attack the person for believing such "nonsense" and take on an air of superiority that I have yet to see justified in any way.

What's surprising is, you balk at being grouped in with the "intellects", yet again you bring up intelligence, as in Christians lack it for not being able to tackle straightforward debates, thereby implying that atheists and seculars are somehow more intelligent since, in your opinion, they are able to debate such a topic. Well, I'd be interested in challenging that, anytime you're up for it. I'd be most interested in debating Christianity with you on an "intelligent" level.

Actually "honey" I used "buckle up" purposefully ( as in the context of "it's going to be a bumpy ride for you if you expect an easy and unchallenged ride") but thanks for the condescension anyway and your kind attempt at teaching me English. As a foreigner I much appreciate it.


You have given me your idea of Christianity by telling me you do not have to tolerate me or anybody else for that matter. I can't imagine Jesus being intolerant, and condescending but then again maybe Jesus isn't your role model...

Regarding my lack of substance in my secularism, maybe you could come up with some evidence for your beliefs in a deity ? A modicum of substantiated, proven evidence might be nice . But no we are all supposed to take all belief at "faith" value... How convenient. At least science is an ever evolving thing, which strives to question, challenge and explain our vast universe. What exactly does your faith do to explain its little fairy tales, myths and superstition?
Just quote scriptures ad Nauseam and explain us all to just swallow it up like good little campers. Pot ? Kettle? Anyone?

Until this forum I had always been incredibly tolerant of people's beliefs ( all of them), but I have seen so much homophobia, hatred, intolerance, bigotry, racism and other very unattractive traits in some posters, it has reinforced my Atheism and made me realise that if there ever was a Jesus , his following is fairly slim if behaviour, and example is anything to go by.
My tolerance level has gone down with every rabid fundamentalist posting .

To say that Atheists attack Christians because they are easy targets is just really laughable. This forum tends to attract mostly Christians so they will be the ones who get challenged most. Believe me though I have no problem discussing my Atheism with people of any other religion and do so on many occasions.

So Buck up little camper because this forum is still a platform for debate and intellectual discourse as far as I am aware ( whatever your denomination or lack of ) and if criticisms offend you that much ( funny how you deny that and then whine about us evil Atheists picking on the little Christian lambs ! ) then maybe you should find a nice congregation where everybody else just bows down and believes the same thing , patting themselves on the back for their righteousness.

As for intelligence and Christians, considering the vast majority of people I chose to associate with are , I am hardly saying that the two are necessarily mutually exclusive.

What I am saying though is that as soon as you introduce science or reason in the mix some posters start spewing scriptures and going completely off the deep-end.

When someone tells me the earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs roam the earth and were contemporary of humans , my instinct tells me that a debate is hardly going to be possible...

Some Christians always seem to play the "get out of jail free" card by everything being "faith" and not having to prove anything or demonstrate a modicum of evidence for their beliefs. Then they have the gall to question science as being erroneous and of dubious and questionable integrity.

Maybe some of us are just wired to question and challenge things a bit more and demand some kind of logical explanation for claims of divine existence . That obviously offends some.
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